Parasites - one for Lyon

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Postby dylan48 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:03 pm

To develope a whole new compound from the begining is really tough and dangerous but to isolate the active element to upgrade Treg cells seems ...well, that seems a lot easier and less dangerous task...


Anybody want to start a laboratory in Cuba ? Fidel may be ready to reason...and he has no great love for big american pharm companies...It all reminds me of the 100 mile per gallon carberator that the oil companies hold the rights to...

as an example

Didn't the gov. isolate the active element in pot..now that didn't take billions upon billions and tens of years
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Postby Lyon » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:40 pm

dylan48 wrote:So are we talking a natural supplement ... or FDA approval ?
In the US the FDA has been controlling the clinical trials right from the start and they (rightly) are being very cautious about this whole thing. Things would have to do a DRASTIC turnaround for the FDA to ever OK it as a supplement. Example, even though the FDA originally gave the University of Iowa the go ahead to hold clinical trials in 1999? using T suis (swine whipworm) against ulcerative colitis and Crohn's, the University of Wisconsin got a $358,000 grant from the NMSS a year or so ago to hold T suis/MS clinical trials and so far the FDA hasn't let them do it.

How do you see it shaking out ?
Things have already begun to snowball, regarding interest and acceptance by the medical field and I think it's going to continue at an increasing rate as some of these obscure clinical trials in other countries come to light. I don't know if they'll eventually publish the results but there is a small T suis/MS study with (last I knew) 4 or 5 people in Germany at Marburg and Charite Universities which evidently is showing good results. I should point out that the study is no placebo and is only intended to determine if clinical trials are warranted so my saying that the results have been good means absolutely nothing.

I personally can't hazard a guess how things are going to shake out but I'm happy that things have progressed past the point that this thing could be swept under the rug and forgotten. That's all I care about.

Bob
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Postby dylan48 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:03 pm

Bob,

Heard of this man ? Ethan M. Shevach, MD, Cellular Immunology Section, Laboratory of ...
Cellular Immunology Section. Ethan M. Shevach, MD. ... Contact Info. Ethan M. Shevach, MD Phone: 301-496-6449 Fax: 301-496-0222 E-mail: ems1@box-e.nih.gov Mail: Bldg ...

He had what seemed like a rather clueless statement what about the announcement from Jorge Correale, MD....something like "something must be going on" nothing like "we are well aware and monatoring"

Do you recall "We have Arabs enrolled in our flight school who are not interested in landing the aircraft."

The prob I run into is the elegance it takes to get across the Blood B with out using something that occurs naturally, it amost seems like rebooting the computer, upreging treg cells...but then I only been thinking about this for a week
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Postby Lyon » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:23 pm

Hi Dylan,
First I should say that I don't think you're allowed to post someone's contact information on this site, or even your own so if you could hit the "edit" button when you're logged in and remove the email address and phone number the moderators would probably appreciate it.

dylan48 wrote:Heard of this man ? Ethan M. Shevach, MD, Cellular Immunology Section, Laboratory of ...Cellular Immunology Section.
He had what seemed like a rather clueless statement what about the announcement from Jorge Correale, MD....something like "something must be going on" nothing like "we are well aware and monatoring"
The name seems a little familiar but I'm not familiar with his statement. As I mentioned earlier, this is new and there is much that isn't known. Researchers are understandably being cautious about what they say and do because their reputations are at stake.

If it's meant to be it'll come in due time and in the meantime there are lots of other interesting things going on in the MS research world.

Bob
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Postby dylan48 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:34 pm

Bob

I used no deception in aquiring any of the information I posted, he works for the USGovenment so contact him as you would your Congessman during normal business hours...ask questions to get pertinate answers and share with the board ...he won't return my request by email...and I have tried, even called an talked to his secratary. Maybe someone else woud have better luck.

Thanks

Secrets are a danger zone
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Postby dylan48 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:53 pm

Bob

The board I think would be interested in anything that the UofI Doctor who did the 1999 research on parasites might be thinking since this new information came out and really Bob with your background I would appreciate it you took a look ... would it matter if I posted his name and the new university he is at now ? You might be too busy so someone else might want to help...

Thanks
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Postby Lyon » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:36 pm

Hi Dylan,
I have an obsession and a lot of questions but I don't have a background....or at least not an official one. I do work at a university but I'm a gardener and not a researcher.
The board I think would be interested in anything that the UofI Doctor who did the 1999 research on parasites might be thinking since this new information came out and really Bob with your background I would appreciate it you took a look ... would it matter if I posted his name and the new university he is at now ?
You're talking about Joel Weinstock and that he moved to Tufts a year or so ago? If so I'm not sure what he thinks about this recent study but I imagine he's watching with interest.

I don't want to cut the new study down because the researchers freely admit that it had it's faults, but it really wasn't a terribly controlled situation and in the end it's only value is documenting a situation of interest. If it serves to raise the interest of an increasing number in the medical field and the general public, it makes me happy.

You might find this related thread at the Ovamed forum interesting http://www.ovamed.de/phpforum/viewtopic.php?t=742
Bob
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Postby dylan48 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:34 am

Bob,

Do you think it would be easier to isolate what ever it is from parasites that makes the treg cell upregulate themselves...and approving it would be a simpler/easier process because it would be a naturally occuring substance.

Thanks

would the Dr. from Uof I have that answer ? now at Tuffs
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Postby dylan48 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:08 pm

Bob,

http://www.xprize.org/ is expanding I wonder if Medical is in the mix Bob its time for you to stop under achieving

Thaks
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Postby Lyon » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:16 pm

dylan48 wrote: Do you think it would be easier to isolate what ever it is from parasites that makes the treg cell upregulate themselves...and approving it would be a simpler/easier process because it would be a naturally occuring substance.
Several years ago William Harnett isolated something he called ES 62 (excrete/secrete 62) which I had hoped was "the stuff" but I assume he was only able to isolate one part of it because he and other researchers continue the search for whatever it is that the helminth excrete/secrete to modulate immune systems
Harnett W (William)
Latest Paper:
Parasite Immunol. 2007 Mar ;29 (3):127-37 17266740
Phosphorylcholine mimics the effects of ES-62 on macrophages and dendritic cells.
It's important to keep in mind that, even though it needs to be more clearly understood, the worms don't control only one aspect of the immune system and they don't just supress the immune system. It really does seem that they regulate the immune system to keep multiple levels where they need to be.

When you think about it, it only makes sense. Until the last 100 years there has never been a time in human history when we didn't have these parasites controlling our immune system for us. The only thing I find surprising is that we don't experience more immune problems, but when you consider allergy, asthma and over 80 autoimmune diseases....that really is a sizeable percentage of the population having problems.

would the Dr. from Uof I have that answer ? now at Tuffs
It's hard to say. No doubt he's heard of and read the study but he's the head of gastroenterology at Tufts and I imagine that alone keeps him busy. I'm sure he's not directly involved with the efforts to isolate what it is that the worms excrete/secrete so I don't think there's much to learn from him in that regard. I'll try to talk to one of my friends who is involved in the isolation attempt and see if she can guess how long it's going to take/how complicated this thing is.

Bob
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Postby TwistedHelix » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:09 am

I find the topic of this thread intensely interesting, so I've been doing a bit of digging of my own. To my surprise, I discovered that some animal worms live in a pouch which forms just after the junction between the small and large intestine. This pouch is called the Caecum, and in the human body terminates in the appendix.

To my amazement, the appendix may not be a vestigial organ at all but may play a vital role, especially early in life, in the development of the immune system! If human intestinal parasites hook into the appendix, they can muck about to their heart's content... just like R2-D2 plugging into the Deaths Star's mainframe, (do I win the prize for the worst analogy on this site?).

I'm afraid I've gone and lost the links and references I had, but if I find them again I'll edit this post.

Dom.

"Although quite presumptive, it might actually be possible especially since some pathogens, such as the Epstein-Barr virus which is known to cause lymphoma, can be contracted through consumption of undercooked food. Hence, although it is not proven, the appendix might actually have the capacity to prevent a variety of deadly diseases by giving the body the protection it needs through the production of numerous antibodies that combat pathogens that enter the body via food consumption."
(http://www.geocities.com/gcalla1/appendix.htm)

"...theory suggests that the human appendix—as well as the tonsils, the spleen, lymph nodes, and bone marrow—manufacture the antibody-producing white blood cells called B-lymphocytes. " "The Human Body." Science Fact Finder. Ed. Phillis Engelbert. UXL-Gale, 1998. eNotes.com. 2006. 7 Feb, 2007 <http://science.enotes.com/science-fact-finder/
human-body/what-likely-purpose-human-appendix>
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Postby Lyon » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:56 am

TwistedHelix wrote:I find the topic of this thread intensely interesting, so I've been doing a bit of digging of my own.
Hi Dom,
Thanks for the information, I hadn't ever heard that before.

I've always found it interesting that people (myself included) are convinced that only they reside in their bodies and that their body isn't the domain of any other creature. That is despite the fact that we are aware that our stomachs are full of bacteria to help in the digestion process. We would die without those bacteria. Higher forms of life probably would never have been able to evolve without energy those bacteria help us make. Yet in our minds we still consider anything sharing our body a threat.

Possibly we had a similar relationship with parasites in which we needed them to remain healthy? At least that's the idea behind the supposed relationship between these parasites and the incidence of immune disorder.

Unlike our relationship with bacteria in which their loss creates a quick and noticeable problem, maybe the effects from the loss of parasites wasn't quick and obvious enough for us make the association?
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Postby CureOrBust » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:39 am

TwistedHelix wrote:Hence, although it is not proven, the appendix might actually have the capacity to prevent a variety of deadly diseases by giving the body the protection it needs through the production of numerous antibodies that combat pathogens that enter the body via food consumption."
Not sure where you are heading with this? I have not had my appendix, tonsils or spleen for that matter, removed, yet I have MS, and have had EBV?

Lyon wrote:I've always found it interesting that people (myself included) are convinced that only they reside in their bodies and that their body isn't the domain of any other creature.
I cant remember the exact figure, but i remember hearing that if you did a count of cells in a human body, and made two counts, one for human, and the other for anything else, the odds would be 1 to 3 in the "others" favour. ie By count, we are more "other" than human. I am guessing that virus etc being so small, can hide without us noticing their prevalence. And that when you are born your white blood cells contain no DNA, but by the time you die, they are jammed with all sorts of DNA, which isnt yours.

Lyon wrote:Unlike our relationship with bacteria in which their loss creates a quick and noticeable problem, maybe the effects from the loss of parasites wasn't quick and obvious enough for us make the association?
Or maybe the people / children that werent dying from parasite infestations were bumming out all the other numbers?
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Postby Lyon » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:11 am

CureOrBust wrote:I cant remember the exact figure, but i remember hearing that if you did a count of cells in a human body, and made two counts, one for human, and the other for anything else, the odds would be 1 to 3 in the "others" favour. ie By count, we are more "other" than human. I am guessing that virus etc being so small, can hide without us noticing their prevalence. And that when you are born your white blood cells contain no DNA, but by the time you die, they are jammed with all sorts of DNA, which isnt yours.
Hi Cure,
I've never heard that exact thing but that's interesting stuff, believable and I think I'll look into it a little further.
Unlike our relationship with bacteria in which their loss creates a quick and noticeable problem, maybe the effects from the loss of parasites wasn't quick and obvious enough for us make the association?
CureOrBust wrote:Or maybe the people / children that werent dying from parasite infestations were bumming out all the other numbers?
Actually part of it involves the fact that we never really had an awareness that the parasites were dissapearing.....not that we would have shed any tears! I can see that I'm going to have to put some numbers together for you because you seem to have the idea that parasite infestation is highly fatal. Don't get me wrong, parasite infestation isn't good, but I think comparing the number of fatalities to the number of infestations in the world...especially considering that these are in the third world countries where medical care isn't available and infestations which could be controlled with medicine...aren't. I think we'd both be interested in seeing the percentage rate of death.
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Postby TwistedHelix » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:30 am

Hi Cure,

The point I was trying to make was simply this: IF the appendix has anything at all to do with the developing immune system, and IF intestinal parasites latch within or near the appendix, (coincidentally referred to as the "vermiform", or worm- shaped, Appendix), then it might be possible that this is the route by which they could tinker with the immune system as a whole. This was just one of those times when you take two separate pieces of information, (one about the appendix, and one about worms), and put them together in what may or may not be a logical way. I've no idea if I'm making any kind of sense or not.

I've still got my appendix as well, but it's not just having an appendix which might be important in avoiding MS... you'd have to have intestinal parasites as well, and possibly at a particular stage in early development.

I can't speak on Lyon's behalf, but I took him to mean that if we removed a bacterium with which we had a symbiotic relationship, the effect would be immediately obvious. Removing parasites which may be important in balancing our immune system would take much longer to show its effect on our health, and so it would be difficult to spot that direct causal link. Sorry, Bob, if I've misunderstood you.
I take your point, Cure, about survival rates going up if you remove parasites as a cause of death, but I can't quite get my head around why that would affect the rates of auto-immune disease -- suppose, for example, one per cent of a population gets auto-immune disease while four per cent die young because of parasite infestation. If you remove the parasites, four per cent will live longer, but the percentage getting autoimmunity should stay the same unless the parasites have something to do with the disease. Of course, absolute numbers would go up because the population is bigger, but the relative numbers should stay the same -- not sure if I've explained that very well, but it's the best I can do at the moment!

I remember reading a few years ago a VERY reductionist view of human beings: it went something like, "... we're just a big bag of bacteria looking at the world through balls of jelly, a city of cells...", well, this city is in major need of massive redevelopment!

Dom.
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