I think you took me to infer that the permiable bbb is the first step of the MS process but I took great pains to point out that it is the first "recognized" step of the MS process. In other words, we agree on that one. My point is that it seems logical that "sealing" the permiable bbb would stop everything after...effectively ending what we consider to be MS but wouldn't do anything about the underlying autoimmune process....tendency towards other additional autoimmune diseases, symptoms MS sufferers share with other autoimmune disease sufferers, symptoms of other autoimmune diseases not normally associated with MS AND the continued attempt of whatever it is that causes the increased permiability of the bbb in the first place.I dont necessarily think its the first. Its possible that MS is really a condition where our bodies undergo something that causes the BBB to become degraded. eg by infection, genetics or both etc etc etc. It may be this trigger as the "first" event. Any neuro that prescribes steroids for a relapse to me is saying that closinbg the BBB will stop MS in its tracks (for a while).
Now I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I inferred that someone with MS could have a healthy bbb because that's not what I believe.I have NEVER herd anyone say that someone can have MS but a healthy BBB. So it would appear to be the only un-argued "truth". I'm stating it this way so someone will prove me wrong Smile
First, my statement was "controlling any of these would result in improvements from the treatments we now have but anything resembling a real "cure" is going to have to come from knowledge of even earlier stages of the disease process which we have yet to identify." which wasn't a statement that we can control any or all of the factors of MS we are aware of but "if" we could control them. In regards to your response, from what I've read researchers can't state with confidence what any of the MS drugs do exactly....including steroids.Now, a lot of current treatments do work on most of these MS disease paths. Steroids SHUTS the BBB and is known to STOP MS in its tracks (at least in the begining). Now, what else has been shown to provide this effect? What else do they give you during a relapse (ie when MS is at its most active)? How does this other agent work?
Now that's just mean and I think you've hurt their little feelings! Seriously....I think the researchers know whether or not your statement is true but I don't.Helminths have never been shown to stop a relapse in it tracks. Wink
HEY NOW!! Share and play nice! OK, since it's your thread I'll play by your rules. I'll bet you're right, MS isn't an immune dysfunction and is in reality a bbb dysfunction. And the multitude of seeming similarities to what really are autoimmune diseases is nothing more than a quirk of fate of consistant though astronomical proportions. Stranger things have happened...... on second thought that really would be the strangest thing ever.Hey, get your own thread! this one is about it NOT being an immune system dysfunction but a BBB dysfunction. Close the BBB and no pig worms would be needed. I implied these parasites may have been covering the effects of an overly permeable BBB, this doesnt meen we shouldnt be looking for a way to remove the need for the critters.
I've been told on multiple occasions that size doesn't matter. Admittedly the accompanying snickers didn't do much for my ego.The following is from the first link in my original post. It implies its simply a size issue, however, I have seen various tovaxin animations which imply its more than size which determines what gets through and what doesnt.
But what I am saying is that for people steroids work for, its the BBB effects that cause a big part of the benefit. I have yet to read any research that has found otherwise. If we cant disprove it, it becomes the best we know.I've read researchers can't state with confidence what any of the MS drugs do exactly....including steroids.
http://www.msaa.com/publications/Spring04/research_news.htm wrote:Passing through the BBB is the necessary step for the cells to attack the myelin and cause damage to the nerves of the central nervous system (CNS). To cross the BBB, immune system cells must first adhere to the blood vessels.
Which to me says that they are thinking the immune modulation is its biggest effect (ie not its BBB effects).Cladribine inhibits immune reactions by disrupting the production of certain white blood cells, particularly lymphocytes, which are involved in the disease process of multiple sclerosis.
I only aim to please. Your wish is my command. What would you rather I call you, "gal", "ol' gal", "madam" or "girl"? I've already been warned not to call you "late for dinner"!CureOrBust wrote:Lyon, your calling me a girl (not that there is anything wrong with being a girl), but as I caught up on this thread, I found post after post where you "argued" about us not "arguing"? huh?
I'd surely like to harrass you about this one too, but I'm not convinced enough to argue it either way. As I've said before, I'm really not sure anymore how much it matters whether MS is autoimmune or not.I am taking the extreme stance here, that MS is not an Autoimmune dysfunction AT ALL! Remember my point that everyone produces MRTC's. Now, we may be attenuated by the inflamation caused by the BBB disruption, but thats a flow on effect of BBB disruption.
You are the hardest person to argue with! Not that you've got a good point but because I sometimes think you come up with these things out of the clear blue sky I've read speculation that steroids might have some effect on the bbb but far and away steroids are known for controlling inflammation.But what I am saying is that for people steroids work for, its the BBB effects that cause a big part of the benefit. I have yet to read any research that has found otherwise. If we cant disprove it, it becomes the best we know.
I hate NOT to be able to differ with you about something but I THINK I agreeAs for what gets through the BBB, virus and bacteria can definitely get through, even a heallthy one. And I see (in my little thread of absolutes) that they could actually attack the BBB to cause the permeability.
Please clarify what you are talking about? Proving you wrong regarding your original post which started this thread?Now, my problem is that I can see the merits to this argument, but I dont think I believe it. However, whenever I try to prove it wrong to myself, I turn up empty handed and left with nothing but to believe in it. It cant be this simple, and not be solved. Please, prove me wrong so I will understand it all better.
I was pretty sure of that but you've got to admit that robbie was questioning you pretty hard.Chris55 wrote:Lyon--my "STOPPPP" was meant as a joke! I have a VERY strong sense of humor!
You're gonna love it. It's terrible! I was going to add a smiley face or a (just kidding Chris!) but that would have watered down the intensity of the irreverant humor.Now to test that sense of humor, I'm going to go read your "SLAM"--can't wait!!!
Look lady, dont go start the name callin.Lyon wrote:What would you rather I call you, "gal", "ol' gal", "madam" or "girl"? I've already been warned not to call you "late for dinner"!
If you agree there is nothing to harrass me about, however, the point I have made in regard to this ocmment, I think is generally accepted ie All people produce MRTC'sLyon wrote:I'd surely like to harrass you about this one too, but I'm not convinced enough to argue it either way.
But what I am saying is that for people steroids work for, its the BBB effects that cause a big part of the benefit. I have yet to read any research that has found otherwise. If we cant disprove it, it becomes the best we know.
Lyon wrote:You are the hardest person to argue with!
Where I get these ideas, the sun dont shine, but that doesnt make my propositions any weaker.Lyon wrote:Not that you've got a good point but because I sometimes think you come up with these things out of the clear blue sky
Usually, for OTHER conditions, steroids are specifically used for immune modulation and/or inflamation reduction. However, for MS (see previous links) it appears to me that the common accepted path of action is the effects on the BBB.Lyon wrote:I've read speculation that steroids might have some effect on the bbb but far and away steroids are known for controlling inflammation.
...During treatment there was a rapid reduction of BBB abnormalities...
Thus, the blood-brain-barrier integrity improved after high-dose IV methylprednisolone, which correlated well with the clinical improvement.
Its starting to worry me that you become so emotional that you agree with a point I happen to agree on, when it really is a world renown, un-arguable fact. But you cry because I also believe itLyon wrote:I hate NOT to be able to differ with you about something but I THINK I agree
My quandry is that I am the same!Lyon wrote:Now, my problem is that I can see the merits to this argument, but I dont think I believe it.
Yes, I cant think of anything in this thread that has invalidated anything I originally posted.Lyon wrote:Please clarify what you are talking about? Proving you wrong regarding your original post which started this thread?
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