Kaleidascope/blind spot in right eye

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Kaleidascope/blind spot in right eye

Postby Wonderfulworld » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:28 am

Hi
I'm 11 weeks pregnant and have been doing great so far, MS-wise.

Just noticed with shock that I can't see properly in my right eye.
At first I thought I'd looked at something that had dazzled my eye, then I realised the vision is gone in a small central spot.
Then all around the spot it's gone like a moving kaleidascope.....very exciting altogether 8O (not!).

Now the kaleidascope effect is less but I still can't see right in the right eye - it's always been the poor oul right side that gets "MS'ed".

Has anyone had any experience of relapses during pregnancy? Did you take steroids? - I dislike steroids and have only taken them twice in 9 years, but for an eyesight thing I am tempted. Also in a bit of a quandry about work - due back in tomorrow after 2 wks hols, I feel find in every other way but not sure if I should rest/ignore it. I work on a pc so it mightn't be the best idea to be in....ach! Blasted MS!

Any advice or comments welcome, thanks
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Postby TwistedHelix » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:34 am

Hello WW,
What you're describing sounds identical to something that happened to me about 10 or 11 years ago, (except for the bit about being pregnant – congratulations, by the way). I became aware of what appeared to be a gigantic ball moving into my field of vision from the left, which was fringed with shimmering, multicoloured light, a bit like looking at an organism surrounded by cilia under a microscope. It moved across until it covered about half my view, stayed for an hour, then receded again. I was left with a very strange residual effect: although I felt as if I could see perfectly clearly, I noticed that when I looked at signs the first letter of every word was missing – ery eculiar!
It happened twice, a few weeks apart, but was completely gone within a few hours. At the time I put it down to Optic Neuritis, which frequently resolves itself, but now I'm not so sure: the fact that it was my left field of vision and not my left eye makes me wonder if it was a disturbance in my visual cortex rather than the optic nerve, and the strange after effects sound more like a mini stroke.

I didn't take any time off work because it resolved itself very quickly, but rest is always useful in the management of MS symptoms. In my opinion a quick chat with your doctor wouldn't go amiss, if only to check your blood pressure,
Dom
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:56 am

Thanks TwistedHelix
that's bizarre, that's exactly what's happened me over the course of today, it has completely gone about 5 hours later. I am seeing the first letters in words though :lol: I also have got a right sided roving itch now, that comes and goes with me, so I am just going to ignore that.

Thanks for the congrats! I was tested for clotting disorders last year after miscarriages, but I turned out normal, but I've been told to take low-dose aspirin as a "it won't do any harm" approach, with progesterone also, to support the pregnancy. So far it's working. So if I'm on aspirin I think it's less likely it's mini-stroke and more likely it's MS, but I think you're right, I will check with my GP re blood pressure, better safe than sorry.

I'm going to give work a go tomorrow as I feel fine in every other way, but if I feel bad I'm coming home!
Thanks for the advice and support. :wink:
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Postby EyeDoc » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:28 pm

I don't think it is possible to diagnose your problem from just your description. We MSers tend to jump to MS as the cause for our problems, but with the eye it *may* not be the cause. I think the best course of action would be to see an eye doctor and let him/her do a full examination of your eyes. Yes, MS can cause some funny effects, most commonly optic neuritis troubles, but most are treatable with anti-inflammatory drugs like steroids. Your pregnancy, of course, complicates the treatment, but I would still recommend having everything checked.
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Postby Lyon » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:34 pm

Hi Wonderfulworld,
There is no doubt that EyeDoc gave you the best words of wisdom you could follow.

Dom, google optical migraines. A couple of years ago I carbon monoxided myself in my old van with a bad exhaust system and suffered from them two or three times. The word psychedelic came to mind when it was going on. I just called them the "eye shimmers" until I talked to my sister, a long time migraine sufferer who identified them as optical migraines. My wife started having them around the time of MS diagnosis, which may or may not be attributible to MS. Till now several studies regarding the relationship to MS have been inconclusive.

Bob
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Postby AllyB » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:25 am

Hi WW

Also congrats on the pregnancy!

I would agree that a quick check with an expert is always a good thing, especially if dealing with unfamiliar symptoms, and our eyes are so precious. Also, rest is always beneficial, especially during pregnancy (good excuse for some extra zzzzzz's!).
Your OBGYN would know if you could have steroids during your pregnancy (I know that some form of this drug is used if you are in prem labour to help mature the baby's lungs - but not sure of the dose and type), just in case it ever becomes an issue. I have read that your risk for a relapse decreases during pregnancy, but then increases for about three months after the birth (sure you already know this, sorry to mention it again).

Also, I remember my doc advising me not to use asprin while pregnant - not sure why, but could be due to the risk of bleeding for a person with no clotting abnormalities - this would obviously be for using a normal therapeutic dose for pain/headache etc, not low dose like you are on.

I also have thought that maybe a small bleed in the eye being the cause of your problem, and as the blood is re-absorbed, your vision returns to normal (?? maybe talking rubbish here), so it may be worthwhile getting your clotting factors re-checked now, if it has not been done recently.

I am definitely no expert and these are just ideas/suggestions, so please take them with a pinch of salt - the best advice given in the prior responses is to see a doc, if nothing else, it will put your mind at rest.

All the best and enjoy your pregnancy.
Al
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Postby TwistedHelix » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:25 am

I did as you suggested Bob, and you're right: the symptoms described are strikingly similar, yet there's something which doesn't quite fit in with what I experienced; I can't describe what exactly because I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't quite feel right.

Ally, yes, retinal blood vessels can cause an aura like this if there is a problem such as a blockage, and in this case the symptom will be seen through one eye only. Because mine was the same in both eyes I guessed it was something going on in my brain.

Because migraines and possibly MS have a vascular component I've often wondered if there might be a connection, (I've always been " headache-y" with occasional migraine), so here's a link with a few abstracts on the subject:

http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/346 ... dache.html

Bob, I'm a bit worried about the whole " carbon monoxide" thing: do you need to talk? More to the point: do you need a hosepipe?

WW: let us know what you're doctor says, (there: you've got to go now!).
Dom
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Postby Lyon » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:20 pm

TwistedHelix wrote: Bob, I'm a bit worried about the whole " carbon monoxide" thing: do you need to talk? More to the point: do you need a hosepipe?
Hi Dom,
Just when I thought we were getting pretty close. I figured I was getting to be the brother you wished you'd never had. Couldn't you at least make a show of trying to talk me out of ending it all before offering the needed hardware? :lol:

Actually, I'm an old geezer who remembers the days of being knocked out with ether for medical procedures. Compared to breathing ether, carbon monoxide is like a fresh spring breeze!

Bob
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Postby AllyB » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:38 pm

Hi Dom

Sorry, don't mean to hi-jack this thread and will keep it short, but your link was very interesting, thanks for posting it.
I have also had migrains since I had a mild head injury in my twenties, but only developed ms at 34 yrs old (8 yrs ago). I still get headaches, even worse now since being on Avonex :lol:
My oncologist feels that there is a vascular component in the large active lesion in my c-spine as if I hyper-flex my neck, I get an intense buzzing down my rt arm, and it becomes paralysed for a minute or so (like a mini-stroke), then recedes, this is in addition to the L'Hermittes. My neuro disagrees......The plot thickens!

Any other links or info on the vascular link in ms would be most appreciated. Also, what do you use to treat your headaches? Hope your eyes have been ok lately?
Bob - I con't imagine what it is like to breathe ether - except that it gives really bad headaches, I've heard! Carbon monoxide, on the other hand, I believe is really quite pleasant...

WW - waiting with anticipation to hear how you are and what the doc says...

thanks agin, guys.
Al
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Postby Lyon » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:05 pm

AllyB wrote: Bob - I con't imagine what it is like to breathe ether - except that it gives really bad headaches, I've heard!
You've got it! Awful brain headaches! I was only five and don't remember it well (47 years ago) except that when I was out there was a stark black background with multi-colored sea horses floating by.
AllyB wrote: Carbon monoxide, on the other hand, I believe is really quite pleasant...
Um, actually I was exaggerating a little about that fresh spring air thing. I get terrible brain headaches from carbon monoxide too, although if someone were intent on suicide it's probably not the worst way to go.
Bob
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Postby TwistedHelix » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:48 am

Ally, here's a bit more information about vascular involvement in MS and the potential role ischaemia plays in the very early stages of MS – possibly even before demyelination :

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/m ... 3/art00002

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=501826

http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/51/2/260

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/346 ... cular.html

I haven't had any more problems with my eyes since those two episodes all those years ago. I take co-codamol for my headaches, (paracetamol and codeine), and that works pretty well for me.

Bob, I WAS proud to call you my virtual brother, but since you unashamedly revealed your age to the entire MS community, you have been reclassified as " grandad",
Dom
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Postby Lyon » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:34 am

TwistedHelix wrote:Bob, I WAS proud to call you my virtual brother, but since you unashamedly revealed your age to the entire MS community, you have been reclassified as " grandad",
Hi Dom,
Don't rush things! Although I'm old, daughter is only 17 and son is only 15. Too early for Grandkids!!

I can't help that it makes me shudder everytime researchers base their efforts on "EARLY" MS or mention "shortly after onset"
TwistedHelix wrote:ischaemia plays in the very early stages of MS – possibly even before demyelination :
because nothing specific to the MS process has ever been identified, researchers have NO idea when the process starts, therefore no idea what "early MS" is. Likely it starts LONG before they or else WM, GM degeneration and atrophy wouldn't be obvious upon diagnosis. Basing any research on "early" MS is foolishness on the part of researchers, and is especially obvious in research papers regarding current research attempts to more closely predict individual disease course.

They're never going to understand MS if they don't utilizing common sense and logic in research.

Brother like no other, Bob
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Postby TwistedHelix » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:52 am

Hiya Grampa,
I don't think these researchers were necessarily looking for something to define the early onset of MS, but the evidence they found points pretty powerfully to vascular changes occurring extremely early, (in fact, as you say, long before any changes in myelin or any brain matter). There has been suspicion around for a long time that MS is, at root, a vascular disease and these guys found endothelial cell activation, antigen expression, and fibrin deposition. Endothelial cells, of course, form part of the blood brain barrier with all that that implies, and I have a vague recollection of discussing with you once how missing intestinal parasites can have an effect on the blood brain barrier, (although I can't remember the details),
Dom
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Postby Lyon » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:03 am

Hi Dom,
I wasn't really knocking the value of the research that these particular people are doing. In fact in this case I don't think their perception regarding just when the MS process starts (therefore, what constitutes "early") will negatively affect their results.

Totally separate from that I was commenting about the research groups who are attempting to better determine future disease course with the perception that they know what "early" MS is (time of diagnosis of MS and time of disease onset are two completely different things). I've noticed that these researchers almost invariably mention that they are working with, and basing their results on the "fact" that their researches starts with patients with "early" MS. THAT misconception will skew results in that type of research to the point of being absolutely worthless.

It's the same thing as convincing oneself that you can can accurately determine the average speed of a race car through a 500 lap race by monitoring only the last three laps.
TwistedHelix wrote: I have a vague recollection of discussing with you once how missing intestinal parasites can have an effect on the blood brain barrier, (although I can't remember the details),
Gosh Dom, I don't remember discussing that particular aspect either, but maybe at one point I stated that the permiable bbb is the first step of the MS process which has been identified by the medical field and that there obviously are previous steps of the disease process which have yet to be identified, and that the first step of the disease process was the loss of evolutionary normal conditions, which includes the loss of exposure to the parasites which had historically "modulated the human immune system?

I hate to put words in someone else's mouth, but maybe that's what you were referring to? :twisted:

Bob
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Postby AllyB » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:09 am

Hey guys

Dom - thanks for the links, this has prompted me to do a bit more research regarding this, if I find anything new you may not have seen, I will post it. Brain fog bad today, but I seem to remember reading somewhere very (like last night) recently (probably here) that a combination of paracetamol, codeine, and caffiene, in tablet form, was very effective for modereate migraines (the caffiene was significant for a reason that escapes me now, but a study was done). I will discuss on my next visit with neuro as I have been using paracetamol and ibuprofen combo (no good). Glad your eyes have been good since.
Maybe Bob can be your really "big" brother, or maybe even "good ole Uncle Bob"!? Just formalise your relationship somehow....
Bob - I think I am not too far off your age, and my kids are even younger - the sea-horses sound kinda cool though, sorry to have missed out on that! Dom is either in denial or just a young whipper-snapper with no respect...
You know the years are passing when you enter a store and the sales clerk addresses you as "ma'am" instead of "miss" (guess you guys don't have those external indicators, which probably contributes to your denial!), but I console myself with the fact that no-one has yet asked me how old my "grandchildren" are...I was however once asked when my baby was due, when my second (and last) child was already a month old - bloody cheek. Never make that mistake guys......

Take care guys and thanks for the help.
Al
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