Helminth/MS clinical trial

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Helminth/MS clinical trial

Postby Lyon » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:10 pm

A little more information about a known upcoming clinical trial http://www.primenewswire.com/newsroom/n ... l?d=139544 but how Asphelia came into play, I've no idea http://www.aspheliapharma.com/


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Postby gwa » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:12 am

Any idea how big these worms are? There is a big difference to me between chowing down a fishing worm and one that I can only see with a microscope.

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Postby Lyon » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:29 am

:lol: They're actually microscopic eggs and not worms when swallowed. Yes, you'd need a microscope.
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worms

Postby bromley » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:19 am

A bit more information on the trial:

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/news/n ... px?nid=215
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Postby Lyon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:33 am

Thanks for the link Ian,

I'm sure I differ from the researchers involved with helminth studies, but I'm confident that things like Campath, Revimmune and Tovaxin are going to evolve into acceptable resolutions to MS ("cures" unrelated to the origination of the disease) LONG before any kind of treatment arises from studies with helminths, but I find these studies enthralling because I'm convinced the abundance of evidence supports that the loss of "evolutionary normal conditions" led to the drastically increased incidence of autoimmunity in the developed populations.

In an ironic twist I never would have expected, there are good reasons to believe that things like Campath, Revimmune and Tovaxin will end up providing much better success rates than elimination or reversal of the original cause...........although it's important to identify and document the original cause.

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Postby Wonderfulworld » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:07 pm

I really hope you're right Bob.
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Postby AllyB » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:36 pm

Hi Bob

You have piqued my interest:
In an ironic twist I never would have expected, there are good reasons to believe that things like Campath, Revimmune and Tovaxin will end up providing much better success rates than elimination or reversal of the original cause...........


Please elaborate on the good reasons you mention above - for daft bats like me :lol:
Thanks!
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Postby Lyon » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:06 pm

Hi Ally,

You called yourself an idiot earlier and a bat just now. I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from treating my friends in that manner! :lol:

It seems that most everyone (including myself once upon a time) takes it for granted that the definition of the word "cure", in the purest sense, involves the opposite of or elimination of the original "cause".

If the cause of the problem is a broken bone, mending the bone is the "cure". If bacteria are raising havoc, elimination of those bacteria is the "cure". In the case of MS, eliminating the disease mechanism responsible for increased disability is the "cure".

As in any other situation, elimination of damage caused in the disease process is an entirely separate matter.
AllyB wrote:Please elaborate on the good reasons you mention above -


First, of course, are the very positive results (RRMS) which seem to be shown by a high percentage of people treated with Campath, Revimmune and Tovaxin (although at this point Tovaxin involves good results in 50% of the population of consideration).

Second, as one considerable option possibly leading to the increased incidence of MS in the developed populations, the "loss of evolutionary normal conditions" and medical science in general finds reason to think that spending childhood, up to about the age of 14/15 in an area and under conditions of low MS incidence, is essential to "teach" the immature immune system to appropriately respond through later life (not become self reactive) and that after that point in life it is too late.

Despite that, introducing helminth parasites to the systems of adults already diagnosed as self reactive shows obvious signs of improvement a high percentage of the time......but less than 100% improvement 100% of the time.

Of course it's early and there is a lot of perfecting which can and needs to be done in regards to improving results. Of course it remains to be seen if loss of evolutionary normal conditions is responsible for MS or if the cause of MS is ever identified at all, but I think the above, even if hypothetical situation shows that the most favorable "cure" doesn't necessarily have to have any relationship to the original cause.

AND YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE THE MASTER OF THE LONG POSTS!!

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Postby Loobie » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:14 am

Bob,

Admit it, you ate worms as a kid and you want the rest of us to do so also so you can feel normal :wink:
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Postby Lyon » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:04 pm

Loobie wrote:Admit it, you ate worms as a kid and you want the rest of us to do so also so you can feel normal :wink:
:lol: It's funny Lew because if America wasn't void of them, there is no doubt that I would have eaten them.

I remember my buddies and I eating the living hell out of dirt on the playground in 2nd or 3rd grade. Winter must have ended it and by the next spring the practice had been forgotten. As it happens, the helminths which were endemic to what are now considered the developed populations spread through feces in the soil. The eggs remained infective for a few years but flush toilets have been around long enough that you couldn't get an evolutionary normal, human adapted helminth infection in the US if you tried.

Even in 1962 or 1963 when I was in the 2nd or 3rd grade the cold weather and toilets had eliminated human evolved helminths and their eggs many years previously.

Now, as an adult knowingly and purposefully swallowing a glass of parasite eggs??? I'd have to have some pretty damned good evidence that my hangy down parts were going to fall off before I could bring myself to that!!

Nonetheless, we're shitting ourselves if we think that identifying the original cause of MS is restricted to those situations we consider "pretty" and that we'll like. Researchers long ago ascertained that loss of chocolate cake is NOT responsible for the origination of MS :lol:

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