Sleep Patterns

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Sleep Patterns

Postby Miss_Feisty » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:56 pm

I am trying to sort out my sleep patterns and why they are erratic.
I think establishing a chart might help, but I am also curious about my vitamin levels and the relationship they have.

There are times I am completely exhausted and want to sleep yet after a certain time in the evening I am doomed to be awake all night. Currently, I am only taking gabapentin.

Please educate me on what vitamins and nutrients encourage and deter sleep.

Has anyone else pinpointed factors that interfere with their sleep patterns?

All input appreciated.
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Postby yeb4432 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 pm

what dose of neurontin? what time do you take? have you tried Ambien, Triazolam or LAmictal? What is the status of your spinal cord d/d?
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:09 am

hi miss, guess who
you can try a nice mug of magnesium citrate powder in hot water at bed time. get at least 600mg in during the day if you can, with a good chunk of it right before you get into bed
also, if you are taking b12 in significant therapeutic doses like 1000mcg or 2000mcg, that's good for you but don't take it in the morning. try taking half with dinner and half with your magnesium at bedtime.

i went looking for more info that hasn't been discussed here wrt sleep. 1200mg calcium seems to be a good idea for sleep too. fortunately that's just generally a good part of the d3 regimen that i hope we're all on anyway ;) 4000iu d3, 1200mg calcium (divided doses some at bedtime), 600mg magnesium(divided doses some at bedtime) and 50mg zinc. skip d3 at bedtime if you want the magnesium free to do it's sleep thing!

HTH,
JL
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Postby cheerleader » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:21 am

Hi Feisty....
Sleep can be a huge issue for MSers. My husband was never a good sleeper, we know now it was from his slowly progressing MS. Lots of leg spasms, leg pain, very active mind, insomnia, lousy sleep habits.

He's found relief with the mag citrate Jimmy turned us on to. He also takes a nightly aspirin. He listens to his ipod (usually podcast lectures or calm music) and has it set on a timer. We also found that we have to keep the bedroom cool (cooler than I like it) and covers loose, since his legs can get tangled up. He sleeps better on the days he has moderate exercise and sun exposure. Add the air filter to keep particulates down, and you've got his nightly routine. He's now sleeping soundly for the first time in the 25 years I've been sleeping next to him :)

(Interesting aside- he used to snore, LOUDLY, but hasn't snored in the past year or so he's been on our endothelial health program. Sleep apnea is related to endothelial dysfunction, so something's going on...)

Hope you find some relief...
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Artifishual » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:39 am

Feisty sleep sucks for me too. I drink natural calm mag and smoke weed, that is the only way I can get any rest. I have also discovered that I am better without taking mirapex for my RLS. I had gotten to the point were I was taking 3-5 .5mg a day with little or no results so I stopped taking it all together and find that I sleep better without it and the RLS isn't as bad either. Good luck Arti
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Postby Miss_Feisty » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:45 am

Jimmylegs: I was hoping you would respond to this post!
I will put the calcium and magnesium on my list. Does the D interfere with magnesium at other times of the day?

I currently can't help but feel that I am lacking something in the vita department. Even when I was supplementing with 2000 mcg of D3 my tests were coming back deficient. I am up to 4000mcg split during the day.

The sleeplessness is like a switch that turns on at about midnight, where my eyes will not close or stay closed. This happens in intervals throughout the year so I'm trying to see if I can make comparisons to other issues. I will absolutely try the magnesium.

Cheerleader: A light bulb just went off in my head. You mention about exercise and sunlight exposure. I haven't had much direct daylight exposure now that I think of it. You are so right, a routine is very important to psychologically wind down, this helps most of the time.

Arti: You are the third to mention the mag....I am sold on giving it a try.
Good to hear your RLS is not giving you grief.

I don't have RLS, but I swear my hubby has Restless Body Syndrome, as I dodge the karate moves he imitates while I'm awake watching him sleep.
A sleeping Chuck Norris that one is. AND I wonder why I can't sleep!

yeb: I am between 900-1800mg of neurontin a day, the last dosage a few hours before bedtime. I haven't tried the other medications you mention. Spinal cord at C4 & C6......does this have a correlating effect on sleep?

Thanks for sharing everyone, I have a few new things to consider.
Take Care.
[/quote]
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:30 pm

hi miss, i decided to look for drug related nutrient depletion issues
CHECK THIS OUT:
nutrients depleted by gabapentin
-vitamin b6
-vitamin b9(folic)
-vitamin b12
-vitamin d
-vitamin e
-vitamin k
-biotin
-calcium
-L-carnitine

source (includes reference list)
http://www.publix.com/wellness/notes/Di ... n#Dni-Supp
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Postby Miss_Feisty » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:15 pm

Thanks for the link, that is exactly what I was getting at.....I just feel depleted. Wow, it absolutely makes sense.

As an ms'er I have the "regular" D issues, so I supplement, but the pharmaceuticals are possibly interfering with absorption. Hmm...something to look into. I think it's time to find an alternative to the gabapentin, which I'm not in love with but it helps with the pain. Oh what to do now?
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:08 pm

yea you might have to go pretty big with the calcium and d3 for a while, not to mention b complex and e. cure has recently been investigating the links between k status and d3 so that'll be something to look into also, for sure.

what types of neuropathic pain do you have exactly? there are nutrients that might help. d3 deficiency causes pain for one, but i'd have to hear what you're dealing with to know if it's likely to be d3 pain.

good luck i hope you can sort it all out and feel better!
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Postby Miss_Feisty » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:32 pm

I've been searching the net for more information. I am sidetracked more frequently than not.

Type of pain....more shooting/stabbing than burning. I just finished reading an article that recommended Tegretol rather than Gabapentin for the shooting pain. Again interesting.

I also supplement with B12 1000mg/day, fish oil, E, and blueberry concentrate 500mg.

Nutrients....please do share.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:49 pm

the shooting/stabbing... where? joints, bones, muscles? are there cramps and spasms involved? knowing that could help sort it out a bit better, clarify whether your pain is likely to be from the d3 depletion, or if it might be something else.
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Postby Miss_Feisty » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:03 pm

Muscles, Joints and spasms. Not really cramps.

For example, my neurological back pain that drives me crazy and spasms like a vicious attack, knocking the wind out of me. That type of pain.
Or when my feet spasm and distort and the momentary pain makes me scream.

Gee it sounds like a horror movie.

If it's as simple as altering my D3 intake, where do I sign up? :)
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:41 pm

yea okay i think we've got your pain's number. go with the d3-calcium-mag-zinc deal. it will help the sleep and the pain together. and then maybe you'll be able to take a break from gabapentin and its less helpful effects.

for d3 think about skipping the 4000IU deal for a while if it's not getting you where you need to be. you can do a short term megadose protocol to get into a decent ballpark, and then go back to 4000IU per day for long term maintenance.

if i may ask, what has your d3 level (including units) been the last couple test results? we can have a look at that and then talk shop on megadosing.

you asked about d3 and magnesium interference. the answer is yes. you need to take some of your daily magnesium when there is no d3 supplement being digested at the same time. magnesium is hard enough to absorb from a supplement and d3 will just snag it all for its own (necessary) purposes, and leave no more for all the other processes your bod needs magnesium for. like muscle function (relaxation) for example.

one thing about starting on magnesium. 600mg a day in divided doses i said, above. i would highly recommend building up slowly starting at 200mg one day and then adding 100mg each subsequent day until you hit your personal maximum. i say this because even magnesium is hard to absorb - even the most soluble, absorbable types like magnesium citrate - which means it goes through you. ever constipated? not any more! you'll want to complement the supplement by upping your intake of magnesium-rich foods - it is easier to absorb magnesium from food, in the lower intestine.

dark leafy greens like chard, beet greens, and kale are great for
-magnesium
-potassium which goes hand in hand with mag
-vitamin K, which is needed to combat d3 deficiency also. (note that K is another nutrient negatively affected by gabapentin).

one neat idea i saw recently was kale pesto. it's tasty. i put it in my last batch of spaghetti sauce and it was great. next time i get some kale in the house i'm going to puree it up with some pesto myself.

HTH,
JL
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Postby Miss_Feisty » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:32 pm

I will definitely switch things around and go for the cal mag supplements. I'm due for a trip to the health food store. Maybe I'll get some direct natural light tomorrow.

I don't have a d3 number, I'm am always told my levels are simply deficient or really "low". I will ask for it next time. But what mega dosage would be relatively safe and for how long? Are you talking a temporary 10,000 unit range?

Well, I have a few things to try, hopefully it will help. I just want to live in the land of the daylight again....no more sleepless nights! :)

Thank you for all the suggestions Jimmylegs, you are very helpful.
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Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:10 pm

yea if you can get your hands on the dates and findings from whatever d3 tests you've had, and compare that to the lengths of time you've been supplementing d3 and in what amounts, that will be informative.

i am not sure what units your lab is operating in, but when i started investigating d3 i called the drug centre at my hospital and they said they boost patients 50 nmol/L by administering 50,000IU d3 for only 10 days. then i went to the pharmacist and we figured out what product would be useful (don't let them sell you the 50,000IU D2 pills), and it's a liquid d3 1,000,000IU/gm. i wrote down the details and took them to my GP and she wrote the prescription. there's a photo of my little prescription bottle on here somewhere too, probably in my mega D thread in the regimens section.

all you need to know is whether you need to add 50nmol/l to your current level, or if you need to boost a little less or even more than that. once you have some numbers you can decide on the number of days to take 50,000 before you drop back to 4000IU/d. it's good to have a followup test shortly after, but i understand that serum d3 levels max out at around 3 months after max exposure, so you'd want to check in on it then too.

once you're up at a good number, if you get some sun on you in the warmer months you can likely drop back to 2000IU per day.

no probs miss, if it makes a difference, i'm happy. just keep us posted on how things develop :)
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