Inclined Therapy I.T. Multiple Sclerosis & Varicose Vein

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Have you ever had varicose veins, Obvious swelling in veins, in your hands or feet? Or haemorrhoids? If you use a wheelchair and have experienced haemorrhoids, answer yes if you have had this problem prior to using a wheelchair.

I have ms but never had varicose veins, or haemorrhoids,
46
43%
I have ms and also have varicose veins or haemorrhoids
44
41%
I Have ms and have experienced visible swollen veins but not varicose veins
17
16%
 
Total votes : 107

Postby Wonderfulworld » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:05 pm

Thanks Andrew
My husband is going to make the plywood wedge for the bed - I hope!
thanks for the info.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
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RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
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Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:53 am

Hi Andrew, I have read this entire post with interest. Thanks for your hard work! I am curious about the involvement of the jugular veins with IBT, and if it has been explained already then please forgive me. When the head is above the heart, research suggests that the internal jugular veins collapse. This mechanism then diverts the cerebral outflow through the vertebral plexus. In a lying position, however, the internal jugulars are open. So if a person has stenosed jugulars, the blood flow in a lying down position will cause damage per Dr. Zamboni's CCSVI theory. However, with your IBT, could it be possible that by keeping the head elevated, a person maintains cerebral outflow through the vertebral plexus, thereby bypassing the damage jugulars, and inhibiting CCSVI-caused damage?

Thanks!



Ikulo

Thank you for this question, which I find it difficult to answer without having observed the changes in blood flow and without the equipment to test to see if these changes are taking place when people are on the 5 degree angle.

If someone who goes for a Doppler scan on the veins, perhaps it may be possible to ask the staff to scan again while someone is on a five degree angle so we can learn what is happening. It is difficult working without medical equipment and the support of a hospital or university so all we have is the equipment above our shoulders.

That said, it is logical that sleeping on an angle will alter the bloodflow and in doing so alter the internal pressure of the affected veins, this is certainly the case in varicose veins and haemorrhoids.

But there is much more to this Inclined Therapy than just the veins. It affects all bodily functions, the muscles, bones, joints, hair, finger and toe nails, skin, renal filtration, heart, eyes, nervous system, lymphatic system, reproductive system, erectile dysfunction, metabolism, circulation, pain, balance, short term memory loss,

It will not however bring us immortality, or protect us from cancer, although it will help us to deal with the medication used for treating cancer as shown by Alison (Old Dragon on the Naked Scientists forum)

We need the help of a hospital in order to find the answer to your excellent question.

Andrew
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Postby Summer55 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:51 pm

I haven't tried the inclined bed therapy myself. However, I believe that if people feel better by doing it, and notice marked improvements in their condition, why not try it? Why not spread the word?

Andrew, I would say that your open-mindedness and advanced knowledge of the various impacts it has on various conditions provides sufficient "qualifications" for your research. You've obviously done your homework! Thanks for posting the info!
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Postby Summer55 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:57 pm

Also, in response to the question of the stenosed jugular. Yesterday I had a doppler ultrasound which showed a stenosis on my jugular. They did the ultrasound first with me lying down, completely horizontal, and then again sitting upright. The stenosis opened up when I was horizontal (and was not visible at all), and narrowed significantly when I was upright, with substantial blood flow blockage. It would have been interesting to have them do the test at different degrees of incline to see where the stenosis takes form.
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:58 am

Summer55 wrote:Also, in response to the question of the stenosed jugular. Yesterday I had a doppler ultrasound which showed a stenosis on my jugular. They did the ultrasound first with me lying down, completely horizontal, and then again sitting upright. The stenosis opened up when I was horizontal (and was not visible at all), and narrowed significantly when I was upright, with substantial blood flow blockage. It would have been interesting to have them do the test at different degrees of incline to see where the stenosis takes form.


Summer

What a great post. Indeed I suspect there will be a difference with an inclined as opposed to an upright posture. Will someone please ask for a five degree angled doppler test and report back to us.

This also poses a problem for the CCSVI theory, as people using Inclined Therapy are reporting significant changes, some even from day one of sleeping inclined.

What is happening here cannot be explained by a sudden release / change in pressure of the main circulation. Something has to be happening to the circulation in the nervous system!

Also remember that I.T. is not ms specific but relates to how the human body functions using gravity. For this to happen there has to be a density difference between the down flow and the return flow, otherwise the effect of gravity would be equal on all of the fluids in the body.

Food for thought?

Andrew
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Postby tzootsi » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:24 am

Summer55 wrote:Also, in response to the question of the stenosed jugular. Yesterday I had a doppler ultrasound which showed a stenosis on my jugular. They did the ultrasound first with me lying down, completely horizontal, and then again sitting upright. The stenosis opened up when I was horizontal (and was not visible at all), and narrowed significantly when I was upright, with substantial blood flow blockage. It would have been interesting to have them do the test at different degrees of incline to see where the stenosis takes form.


I'm not a medical person, but I believe that the jugular is supposed to only be fully opened when horizontal. When in an upright position, other veins take over. I read this in one of Simka's writeups.
However, this may be one reason that IT is helpful, since you are not laying flat and depending on a blocked jugular.
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Postby Summer55 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:47 pm

As far as my official results from my ultrasound - I am waiting to meet with my Doctor next Friday. I am currently only taking what I heard the technician and doctors talking about amongst each other as they performed the test on me.

I'm not sure if they were referring to the internal or external jugular system or which branch thereof the stenosis actually occurs. But I know it is on the right side of my neck.

I will be sure to report back with all the official results after I receive the full report next week!
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Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:05 am

Alison Hammett
I have been using Inclined Bed Therapy for about 17 months now. I don't have MS, but have a range of other medical conditions that have improved considerably during this time. Prior to tilting my bed, I had regular bouts of thrombo-phlebitis every few weeks. It's well over a year now since I had one, and the affected varicose veins are barely ... See Morevisible now. I also had oedema in my legs when I first tilted the bed - it disappeared, and my leg circumference reduced by 2.5" within just a few days. My BP also reduced to a more normal level, and severe muscle spasms caused by a spinal condition have significantly improved, therefore I am in much less pain that I was previously. In fact, my last prescription for Tramadol was issued several months ago, and each time I see my doc he asks if I need a repeat? He seems surprised when I tell him I don't and have only taken 2 or 3 tablets from that prescription. Indeed, I now rarely take (or need) anything stronger than aspirin.

Just posted on Facebook in response to
CCSVI in Multiple Sclerosis: Why has the venous connection to MS not been explored?
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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins? or CCSVI?

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:12 am

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum ... c=18961.25
Made a prediction based on a theory about gravity driving the circulation. That prediction was that varicose veins would greatly improve when a flat bed is avoided in favour of an inclined bed set at a five degree to the horizontal slope affording the head to be higher than the feet. This is called Inclined Bed Therapy, or IBT for short.

The idea was that if we could show photographically these improvements and document them as they occur it would stimulate some interest from the doctors and scientists on this forum and at least gain some comments and questions.

Well, thanks to Alun and a few others who are trying IBT, we now have that compelling photographic evidence and would like to move this forward by inviting doctors and nurses to try to disprove the effects of head up tilt instead of sleeping flat for people with varicose veins and oedema.

The main question that arises from the research and results is why has this been ignored by the many thousands of people who have viewed the thread, many of whom are doctors and nurses?

Why do we needlessly operate on varicose veins when simply changing the angle of our bed will address the pressure differences in the veins and cause them to become pulled in rather than bulging out.

1994 when this was first noticed. Many more people have benefited from this since then. Why has it not become mainstream? Why are you and your colleagues still relying on literature that is obviously in need of some serious revision?

We need your help to progress this further. Please do not walk away and pretend it never happened. It has happened and we now have the photographs online to prove it happened!

Looking forward to your replies with interest. :lol:

Andrew K Fletcher



The above thread is on another forum, Titled: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins? The answers from doctors and scientists afford an interesting insight into how they react. The red warning text above my posts speaks volumes about the impact this is having on their comfort zone.

Hope you enjoy reading the thread as much as I did.

Have any people using Inclined Therapy for 4 weeks or more began to notice significant changes in edema and varicose veins?

Not had any reports back yet?

Kind regards

Andrew the Science Heretic.
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Postby HappyPoet » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:13 am

Hello Andrew,

I'm intrigued by IBT, but I only have spinal lesions. Due to eyesight problems, I cannot read this entire thread, but I would like to know your thoughts about spinal lesions and IBT.

Thank you for your time.

~HP
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Spinal lesions MS and Inclined Therapy

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:39 pm

HappyPoet wrote:Hello Andrew,

I'm intrigued by IBT, but I only have spinal lesions. Due to eyesight problems, I cannot read this entire thread, but I would like to know your thoughts about spinal lesions and IBT.

Thank you for your time.

~HP


Spinal lesions are where I.T has been shown to work. A person with a complete spinal cord injury, where the damage caused by the intial impact and bruising / swelling that follows the impact is thought to be permanent, yet some significant recovery is possible after more than 2 years post injury. If you search the Carecure forum for my posts and replies to them you will find many reports from people who did experience significant recovery. Ignore the rants from those who never tried it, and focus on those that actually tilted their beds.

4 months of Inclined Therapy for a person with a spinal cord injury is the normal time.

MS lesions whether in the spine or brain should show a marked difference given sufficient time, but only you will be able to determine whether this will work in your case.

Is your sight problem due to ms damage? If it is then this should also recover considerably over several months of I.T.

But don't expect it to work in a couple of weeks, as I have said before it is a slow process and usually the first tow weeks can be troublesome.

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Postby HappyPoet » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:49 am

Andrew,

Thank you very much for your very informative reply. My bed is now inclined, and I'll report any changes.

Yes, my sight problems are due to ON which was the symptom that brought about my MS diagnosis -- now the ON affects both eyes, so I'm hopeful that IBT will help.

I have have made a promise to myself to be patient, whether this takes four months or two years.

Thank you again for your helpful, kind reply.

~HappyPoet
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Posture Poll on thisisms forum Need some help with it.

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:20 pm

We now have 43 votes on the posture questions.

This is great, but we need 500 votes to form a constructive picture.

Please forward the link to all of your friends with ms and ask them to vote on the appropriate check box.
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-9774.html

When we reach our target, we can publish the results.
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inclined sleeping

Postby Woodbine » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:39 pm

I had a Doppler exam done of my neck 5 weeks ago, and it was discovered that my right azygous vein was refluxing almost constantly when I was lying down, but not when I was sitting up. So I started sleeping sitting up, and my MS symptoms began improving in 48 hours. Vision in my left eye has been dramatically restored, and my right arm and leg are much stronger. I can once again move my toes (not since 2006). I will now try sleeping reclined rather than sitting up (which is really hard to do) and see if symptoms continue to improve.
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CCSVI Doppler Reflux Horizontal not in Sitting Position

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:47 am

I had a Doppler exam done of my neck 5 weeks ago, and it was discovered that my right azygous vein was refluxing almost constantly when I was lying down, but not when I was sitting up. So I started sleeping sitting up, and my MS symptoms began improving in 48 hours. Vision in my left eye has been dramatically restored, and my right arm and leg are much stronger. I can once again move my toes (not since 2006). I will now try sleeping reclined rather than sitting up (which is really hard to do) and see if symptoms continue to improve.




Woodbine

Thank's for posting this.

Your experience using a Doppler and testing the reflux against sitting and laying down is exactly what we have been waiting to read. Presumably you had not read any of my research prior to sleeping sitting up? Were you advised to sit up or did you make the connection with flat bed rest immediately?

Look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

Thanks again

Andrew
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