Hi Marie, thank you for your post. I will try to answer your points in a way that can be understood clearly and this might take a while. You are wrong on many points however.
Chronic venous insufficiency is on topic for IBT and IBT is definitely on topic for Chronic Venous Insufficiency, which is another term used for varicose or swollen veins.
Another new post on the Varicose Vein study Thread at the Nakedscientists forum:
Contrary to popular belief, I have come here to help people with ms to recover considerable function and sensation and have a huge amount of evidence to support this statement, a few very positive testimonies have already been provided and duly ignored by everyone.
Why is it so hard to get this simple message through to you guys? If the varicose veins are deflating in the legs due to sleeping inclined, then surely the internal varicosed veins will follow a similar pattern without surgery?
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No they will not.
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A blocked vein is blocked. Period. Vericosities in the lower legs may be due to a number of different problems, only some of which are blocked veins.
The veins are not blocked, but restricted by a kink from the plates I have viewed in Professor Zamboni’s paper, and not all of the affected / swollen veins have kinks in them!
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This post from here on is off topic of Zamboni so I posted it here, but this IBT material has repeatedly been inserted into the CCSVI thread so I am going to respond to it.
I can think of several ways that IBT might -might- help heart issues and thus secondarily reduce some varicosities
Please share your ideas about why tilting the bed in the opposite direction than that recommended by the medical profession for oedema and varicose veins with us. I have yet to find anyone who can offer a logical explanation that makes sense.
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that have nothing whatever to do with density and closed loops. Therefore I would not say it can't help. But I am going to say that the theory as it is offered related to fluid density and gravity is not physiologically supportable.
This is physiologically supportable and has been accepted by two vascular surgeons who are convinced it fits with every part of our physiology and gives us an understanding of Starlings Law of the Heart.
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Andrew will admit as well that he has had a very hard time getting medical people to accept it. From the physiologic perspective there is good reason for that.
Andrew has no problem convincing the medical profession, especially when they are confronted with hard evidence. Andrew’s problem has always been getting the medical professionals to keep to their word and conduct a “proper controlled study” instead of hiding their heads up their ass and pretending this is not happening.
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Wrong again, this is not the theory but a video of some simple tubular experiments that show how a tiny amount of salt or sugar can trigger circulation in an (OPEN ENDED TUBE) and even in a glass vessel. The same flow however can operate in a closed loop of tubing too.
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The circulation, unlike that mechanical experiment with a hose, is completely totally open, not closed. The entire system of vessels can be envisioned as miles and miles of tiny soaker hose: you know; one of those hoses made out of a kind of foam that allows the water to soak out of it all along its length. BTW, if you put an empty soaker hose in a pond it'd fill up with water that way too because the water would leach in as easily as it leaches out. Vessels are exactly like that water flows both ways across the membrane easily.
Precisely, we agree on something at last. Indeed this is how dialysis works. Now, if we alter the pressure inside your semi-permeable tube, we can see that excess fluid leeches out. In the body this gives us oedema. Yet IBT shows the opposite effect and oedema rapidly flows back through the semi-permeable vein and into the main circulation where it returns to the kidneys via the arteries and is safely removed into the bladder as it should be. Witnessed on patients by Peter Lewis (vascular surgeon), who confirmed this rapid removal of oedema in a patient the same night I gave a lecture at his home. He visited the local hospital while I waited with his wife and Celeste another vascular surgeon for his return, where he confirmed that a lady, who had severe oedema and ascitis that had not responded to diuretics had rapidly resolved with a lady who was on a head up incline.
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Think of vessels as miles of soaker hose buried in a very wet sludge that is your body. Additionally, the soaker hose is full of proteins (blood protiens and salts) that makes it attract fluid if it gets "denser" than the surrounding tissue.
Even if the salts dissipate into the blood, gravity will still provide a stimulus on the descending fluids, and that stimulus will drag on every single molecule of blood and body fluid inducing a circulatory boost providing the body is aligned correctly to the direction of gravity.
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When you sleep overnight and breathe, yes, you do breathe out roughly 3 cups of fluid gradually a tiny little bit at a time as Andrew says. But this does NOT just all come from the circulation, resulting in denser blood as Andrew suggests.
He is suggesting that when you breathe at night, the blood that just surrendered the water vapor to that breath is now denser,
The blood does not require to be denser. All that is required is that a tiny pulse of solutes is released into the blood at an elevated point. This powerful yet hitherto overlooked effect is capable of lifting water in excess of 24 metres vertical in an “open ended” tube as demonstrated in the 3rd video on Youtube.
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and because it is now denser it naturally, because of gravity, will aid circulation if your feet are down and head up because this now denser blood will sink to the feet
Not the feet, sorry wrong again. The tiny pulses of salts flow down the arteries and enter the kidneys, where effective filtration of said salts removes the excess salts in the urine. Hot urine sinks to the bottom of the toilet rapidly, just like the demonstration on the video link you provided. Admittedly renal function is not 100% effective and some solutes will find their way to the tips of our fingers and toes, and I believe that finger and toenails are yet another disposal site for denser substances.
In support of this, many people over many years of research have reported changes in finger and toenails, some people have even shed inferior nails and grown back smooth healthy nails using IBT.
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and at the same time engage a "sucking" vacuum type action on the other side of the circulation.
In science we don’t like the term suck. It is best explained in pressure changes and the cohesive and adhesive bonding the water molecules have with each other and the vessel or indeed the body that contains them. You may not remember the lessons at school where water under normal atmospheric pressure (open ended tube) cannot travel above 10 meters vertically, no amount of suction at the top of the tube can cause water to be drawn up a single open ended tube. See Toricellli and Galileo and their attempts to draw water up a well using a lift pump.
My experiment at Brixham showed this assumption in physics to be in need of serious revision. My experiment worked because the tiny amount of salt added to one side of the inverted open ended water filled tube sufficed to cause a downward flow that dragged every water molecule in the descending and ascending legs of the tubular experiment around causing the water to circulate. The experiment was designed to show how trees raise water to their leaves, no heart / pump required so a very efficient driving force that surely should not be ignored wherever evaporation changes density.
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He suggests this is a part of everyone's circulation and that gravity is an important part of how our blood moves in our bodies. He says that laying flat is possibly bad for you because the circulation is hampered by not allowing gravity to work on these denser blood pools created in the lungs in the way it normally does.
But opposed to Andrews theory that blood in the lungs becomes more dense because water vapor breathed out, the proteins and salts in the vessels means that fluid is drawn easily from the tissue, the extracellular spaces, to keep the pressure in the vessels constant and keep circulation going. Those soaker-hose-like-vessels have no trouble at all allowing fluid to leach in to make up for the fluid loss and to keep the blood pressure relatively even, so it is not actually any denser.
Think I have covered these points. Let me know if you need further clarification.
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Andrew is representing that the blood vessels have no access to fluid overnight-as if they are a closed loop-- as if a sleeping person gets denser and denser blood in the circulatory system because the only place it gets water is the fluid taken in by mouth, but this is not true.
Indeed it is not true, I have never said this. Oral intake provides a reservoir from which fluids can be moved into the circulation while we sleep or indeed while we are active. The blood does not get denser unless prolonged dehydration occurs. Renal function provides the same filtration process you described earlier with your soakaway pipe and indeed as I mentioned earlier Dialysis uses this principle to clean a persons blood who has defective kidneys.
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The reason is all the blood vessels are like that soaker hose......that is sitting in the very moist sludge that is your physical body. Obviously as soon as there is less fluid in the hose, some will leach in too keep it in what is called homeostasis, a relatively even blood pressure with relatively even osmotic pressure inside relative to outside the vessel.
Glad you mentioned blood pressure. Several people with blood pressure problems have provided regular BP measurements and have shown a marked improvement using IBT
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Overall your whole body can become more dehydrated overnight but this is a relatively even process, not an occurance in the only in the circulation and blood vessels.
Agreed.
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Again you have that soaker hose in the wet sludge that is you (roughly 60% water): as you breathe overnight all of you dries out a little bit.
If you weigh 150 lbs, you are roughly 80lbs of water overall. That 3 cups of water you breathe out is not a big deal and fluid from the extracelluar spaces in the body easily replaces it.
Agreed again. In fact for every breath we take, the fluids in the respiratory tract are refreshed with less dense fluids ready for the next breath out to evaporate, releasing a pulse of solutes down the main artery via entry into the heart.
The late Professor H.T. Hammel during a discussion informed me that he had observed a pulsatile pressure which pushed against the arteries arriving at the kidneys.
Look up:
Roles of colloidal molecules in Starling's hypothesis and in returning interstitial fluid to the vasa recta
http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/cont ... 68/5/H2133Quote:
Also keep in mind that the person is trickling this water out over 8 hours, 16 breaths a minute times 8 hours divided by 3 cups equals the teeny tiny amount of fluid an individual breath is surrendering in the form of vapor. Obviously any density difference in the blood in the lungs vs the rest of the body after a breath is going to be miniscule.
Agreed
However, a miniscule amount of salt solution lifted a comparatively huge body of water 24 metres vertical at Brixham so should not be dismissed on the grounds that it occurs in a large body of fluids, it simply depends at what point in the circulation the concentrated salts are reintroduced into the circulation. The lungs are placed in the ideal place. There is an additional boost from the lymph system just before the heart called the right lymphatic duct. In fact, the lymphatic system just like the cerebrospinal circulation and just like the circulation in a tree has never been explained. The heart does not drive either, we know posture and respiration play an important part according to the physiology literature, yet no one to date has offered a driving mechanism for these fluids.
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In addition to all that, when a person breathes out this fluid through breath, the circulation next sends what Andrew is characterizing as "denser" blood into the heart...to be pumped through the system at lightning speed.
Not lightening speed just the normal rate of the arterial blood flow plus a tiny additional boost from gravity just to keep it circulating at a regulated velocity, instead of it dipping to lower rates at around 3.30 to 4.30 am causing the body temperature to drop by 2 degrees when sleeping flat.
It might also interest you to know that the heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute in animals and humans sleeping on an incline when compared to sleeping flat. It may also interest you that the respiration rate decreases by 4-5 breaths per minute in animals and humans, animals being 3 sleeping bull terriers that were not harmed when having their heart rates measured.
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See this video for a picture of the blood being pumped
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/866 ... -video.htm Now look at what Andrew says is adding signficantly to circulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVwSIeWM ... re=related Note the speed at which the granules flow to the bottom.
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It is obvious that any contribution denser fluid might make to the system is going to be completely overwhelmed by the action of the heart pumping becuase the process he is talking about is very very slow----and THAT is when the solutes are saturated in a closed loop experiment (very very dense on comparison to the other fluid) not the infinitismal difference between blood before the lungs and blood slightly denser after breath.
Wrong again! Only 10 mils of salt solution was added to the Brigham exp, in fact 5 mils, or even 2 mils would suffice to cause the whole experiment to circulate. Don’t underestimate this system. Like I said it is where the concentrations take place not how much concentration is taking place.
You might also want to consider how density changes from respiration are altering the fluids that drive the nervous system. Is it a coincidence that saliva, tears, nasal mucus and sweat are concentrated or does the body somehow produce concentrations at these sample points? Is it a coincidence that nasal applied drugs fare better when salt is added?
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This extremely simple explanation accounts for why medical communities aren't interested in this theory by and large, but it also ignores vast amounts of other complex things which would add weight to the argument against this theory if they were understood as well, like how osmotic pressure is created and things like compensatory mechanisms with relation to vasoconstriction and dilation, but this is not an anatomy and physiology forum, it is a forum for MS, IBT has nothing to do with Zamboni's work, and only the most tangential relationship if you consider the issue of raising the head of the bed to possibly reduce refluces.
Glad you touched on osmosis:
EVERYTHING YOU WERE TAUGHT ABOUT OSMOSIS IS WRONG.
http://yarbroughlaw.com/Patent%20Projec ... 0wrong.htmQuote:
All that having been said it is probably safe for most of us to try this approach, and it seems like some people, evidenced by photo, have had some success with leg vericosities. As I said there might be other reasons this is successful and I do not argue that the pictures actually do look better.
Agreed
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But note I said MOST of us. I have vertebral vein reflux, the vertebral veins carry the venous drainage when you are upright. Guess when the vetebral veins are not refluxing?
When you are exhaling would be my guess! Quote:
When you are laying down flat.
Why do most people with ms experience sleep related problems, and often wake up worse than when they went to bed? Oddly enough so do people with Parkinson’s disease! And many more conditions, all pointing to a bed that was made flat because it looks tidy, rather than having been “scientifically tested for efficacy”
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If Zamboni is right about this issue and there is a blockage of the azygous jugular or combinaitons thereof, the answer is surgery.
Surgery on a limb affected by chronic venous insufficiency may provide temporary relief, but the problems that caused the varicose veins have not been addressed by the surgery, so more surgery will inevitably follow.
Veins that are blocked by surgery often cause bulges in the groin, so do compression stockings.
If surgery is to be your choice, who am I to knock it? All I have brought to this forum is an alternative approach to surgery that does not cost a dime, is non-invasive, does not involve drugs and has already helped a large number of people with ms and other neurological conditions.
Thank you, Marie for providing me with an opportunity to answer your questions and address any shortcomings you may have in understanding how IBT works.
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