Epstein Barr and Immune ablation

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Epstein Barr and Immune ablation

Postby ElMarino » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:02 am

Hello!
We'd always known that EBV was implicated in contracting the illness but now there's good evidence to show that it contibutes to the severity of progression:
http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseact ... pageid=707 - the article 'Epstein-Barr virus may be associated with progression of multiple sclerosis '

I had to sign up and see what people thought - does the fact that EBV lay dormant in B cells explain why Revimmune (cyclophosphamide) and Rituxan eliminate B cells. Could that be why they are effective? It seems so to me. Since Rituxan does not entirely eliminate B cells that would explain why it is not as effective at the complete ablation provided by Revimmune.

Do people contract the virusonce again from family or even pets? Is that why many reactivate??
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Postby andre » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:27 am

i got my first ms symptoms 2 months after a had a bad bout with the epstein virus
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:33 am

There's lots of information on this site regarding all your terrific points, ElMarino....

EBV is carried by 90% of the world's population...that means there's alot of folks with EBV that do not have MS. However-

More than 99 per cent of people with multiple sclerosis have been infected with Epstein-Barr virus during their lifetime but those who contract the virus in the first few years of life, such as children in developing countries where the virus is endemic, show no symptoms.

Those who contract the virus in their teens or early 20s, as in most Western countries, usually develop glandular fever, or infectious mononucleosis, and suffer from extreme fatigue, muscle aches, headaches, throat inflammation and weight loss. Research has shown those people are more likely to go on to develop multiple sclerosis later in life.


There seems to be a connection to the timing of EBV activation and puberty. Here are some more threads discussing EBV and MS. Use the search function for more:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-6397-ep ... l+barr+ebv

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-5992-ep ... l+barr+ebv

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2894-ep ... l+barr+ebv

Good questions,
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby LR1234 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:19 am

Hi Had Mono twice (2 different types)!! (I was told by an viral expert that this was in fact possible)
Last edited by LR1234 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:38 am

was it a general with nitrous, LH?
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Postby LR1234 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:37 am

I am not sure...It was a general and when I woke up I wasn't able to breathe properly so god knows how long I was like that for. Also they had given me an epidural (whilst under a GA!) and that didn't wear off for 3/4 days. I was never the same after this op, it triggered all my health probs.

The irony of it all is the reason for having the op (which I won't go into) was not resolved!!!

L
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:09 am

well that all sounds like no fun whatsoever.
do you know what your b12 level is like?
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Postby cheerleader » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:40 am

ElMarino...
sorry, didn't really address your comment on B-cells or the study you posted. Here's from the link you provided-

The study involved 135 consecutive patients diagnosed with MS at the Multiple Sclerosis Center of the University of Trieste. Evaluations of the MRI scans were carried out at the University of Trieste and at the JNI's Buffalo Neuroimaging Analysis Center (BNAC), which Zivadinov directs.

The Buffalo researchers measured total brain volume, as well as the decrease in grey matter, at baseline and three years later.

Results showed that higher levels of anti-EBV antibody measured at the beginning of the study were associated with an increased loss of grey matter and total brain volume over the three-year follow-up.


Since 95% of adults have been infected with EBV, most adults will show antibodies to EBV from infection years earlier. High or elevated antibody levels may be present for years and are not diagnostic of recent infection.


The EBV antibodies are like footprints in the sand, documenting that EBV has been here...but the antibodies do not mean that EBV is still present in the b-cells. The higher levels associated with documented decreases in grey matter is interesting, though....more studies should follow.

The more I ponder EBV and its connection to MS, the more I see it as part of the puzzle of a weakened cerebral endothelial system....but your questions regarding immune ablation and how the treatments which target b-cells seem most "successful" is a very relevant one. Perhaps others will chime in.
AC

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http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:23 pm

i can only find thready connections between EBV and zinc deficiency, no-one appears to be looking at that directly. but it's an interesting line of thought though, because suboptimal zinc status also speaks to the issue of endothelial health, membrane health in general, plus immune function - T-cells, B-cells, and all.

...Plasma erythrocyte (RBC) and hair zinc (Zn) levels were measured with atomic absorption spectrophotometers in 40 untreated children with Hodgkin's disease (HD). The great majority of the patients belonged to low and average socioeconomic status. The mean blood and hair Zn values in the patients were significantly lower than those in controls (P < 0.001 and <0.01, respectively). Some of the T-cell functions, particularly CD4 cells, were found to be diminished... The present data support our earlier hypothesis that preexisting Zn deficiency due to nutritional environment may prepare a milieu favoring development of malignant lymphoma by suppression of T-cell immunity. In addition, Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV) was found to be associated with pediatric HD at serological and molecular levels
. J. Trace Elem. Exp. Med. 10:191-196, 1997.[/quote]

Journal of Nutrition. 2000;130:1399S-1406S
The Dynamic Link between the Integrity of the Immune System and Zinc Status
Pamela J. Fraker3, Louis E. King, Tonya Laakko and Teresa L. Vollmer
The results of more than three decades of work indicate that zinc deficiency rapidly diminishes antibody- and cell-mediated responses in both humans and animals. The moderate deficiencies in zinc noted in sickle cell anemia, renal disease, chronic gastrointestinal disorders and acrodermatitis enteropathica; subjects with human immunodeficiency virus; children with diarrhea; and elderly persons can greatly alter host defense systems, leading to increases in opportunistic infections and mortality rates. Conversely, short periods of zinc supplementation substantially improve immune defense in individuals with these diseases. Mouse models demonstrate that 30 d of suboptimal intake of zinc can lead to 30–80% losses in defense capacity. Collectively, the data clearly demonstrate that immune integrity is tightly linked to zinc status. Lymphopenia and thymic atrophy, which were the early hallmarks of zinc deficiency, are now known to be due to high losses of precursor T and B cells in the bone marrow. This ultimately leads to lymphopenia or a failure to replenish the lymphocytic system. Glucocorticoid-mediated apoptosis induced by zinc deficiency causes down-regulation of lymphopoiesis. Indeed, zinc itself can modulate death processes in precursor lymphocytes. Finally, there is substantial evidence that zinc supplementation may well reduce the impact of many of the aforementioned diseases by preventing the dismantling of the immune system. The latter represents an important area for research.
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Postby ElMarino » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:32 pm

Thanks cheerleader. Those links were really interesting.

I would feel a lot happier if there was a cure for EBV.

A possible, effective treatment researched in Wisconsin State University and a vaccine pursued at Queensland University but these were announced in 2006 and 2003 respectively. Has anything been heard of these since?

Still, although a vaccine for EBV may be elusive a drug may be engineered which disarms EBV from doing whatever it does to promote MS. The problem is that noone knows how or what it does to promote MS, do they?

I wonder who I kissed as a teenager to end up in the sorry state that I am in now....
Last edited by ElMarino on Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sharon » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:51 pm

LR1234 -

You posted:
I am not sure...It was a general and when I woke up I wasn't able to breathe properly so god knows how long I was like that for. Also they had given me an epidural (whilst under a GA!) and that didn't wear off for 3/4 days. I was never the same after this op, it triggered all my health probs


Your experience is similar to one of mine - I was having a varicose vein stripping - the operation was to take around 2-3 hours. Well, it took 5 hours. When I awoke in the recovery room, I asked my husband,"What happened?" He said, "What do you mean "What happened?" I said, "Something happened in the surgery but I do not know what it is." I asked the doctor - he said that it was just longer than expected. One month later, I was on vacation and walking along the Mall in Washington DC - I stubbed my toe and fell. I blamed it on the surgery on my leg. Since that time, I have decided that something "did" happen in that surgery!! Was it the anesthesia? I do not know----all I know is that is when I started to have problems with my walking ( this was in 1991 and I was diagnosed in 2003).

Oh, by the way - I had mononucleosis when I was a teenager many, many years ago. So did my brother who also has MS.

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Postby cheerleader » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:25 pm

General anesthesia has a risk of thrombosis (blood clots) connected to it. If the jugular/azygos venous insufficiency theory proves to be correct for MS, there may be a connection for you both-

The report is the first to estimate the number of U.S. hospital patients at risk for VTE (venous thromboembolism), Anderson said. Risk was estimated using criteria set by the American College of Chest Physicians. According to those guidelines, risk factors include a hospital stay of two days or more, the presence of severe medical or surgical conditions, older age and any operation involving general anesthesia.

http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=606349

AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby mrhodes40 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:41 am

Hi!
I wondered about revimmune and ebv too so I looked into it. this is what I found:
EBV lives in the marrow too, it is a big problem after leukemia when people get the whole enchilada stem cell treatment where they kill thier marrow then give them marrow from a donor. If they get ebv from a seronegative donor, someone who never had ebv, they will be seronegative, if from a positive donor they will have the ebv strain that donor had.

It's a problem for SCT because the ebv can trigger lymphoproliferative disorder in the person who is trying to suvive afterthe marrow donation. THey have started t give them t-cells that are specific for ebv from donors at the same time to save them from that

SInce revimmune is not myeloablative (doesn't eliminate the marrow) I assume the people would still have the ebv they originally had. Maybe Chris will say if they talked about that at all.

I think personally MS is probably related to something other than autoimmunity, like CPn or ebv (or both and the vein issue allowing all that in) but the revimmune process because it elimiantes the b cells and the ebv vector (and the macrophages and monocytes which are a CPn vector) might have some other reason for being helpful. It even causes anemia which is another way that EAE is stopped in its tracks.

95% of people get ebv, you don't have to kiss anyone. I wasn't "kissing" anyone yet when I got it............... :lol: Probably took a drink of someone's Coke.

The ebv outbreak that went though my tiny school (my graduating class was 36) got many of the high schoolers.

4 of us got MS.

I am the only one still living. 8O I am 48.
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Postby Loobie » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:55 am

Now that is a crazy statistic Marie. #1 I'm glad you're alive and #2. Those statistics should be investigated by the NIH!! That's a huge prevalance rate, and 3 are dead? Geesh! That's 8% of your grad. class!!
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Postby cheerleader » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:03 am

Seriously, Marie...did you go to school at Three Mile Island High??
Where'd you grow up? That's so sad about your graduating class....what do you think was going on in your town?
Also, do you know if EBV is implicated in clotting/thrombosis disorders?
I agree with Lew...I'm really glad you're still here and kicking.
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