New Estriol Information

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Postby Shayk » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:55 pm

Boy, sounds like you are going great guns there!

Congratulations! It's wonderful you can be so creative with making what must be beautiful jewelry. And, here's to no more relapses. 8)

I really appreciate the info on the Tahoma Clinic. I have no idea if they were involved in that patch (or even what that's used for, but sounds like a stimulant) so I'll just steer clear.

I think I'm finally settling on my personal course of action which will be to have all steroid hormones measured using "saliva" test. (I've read more than one source that says blood tests aren't the best measure for "free" hormone levels for estrogen or cortisol.)

After lab results, I'm hoping to work with pharmacist and primary care doc to figure out best HRT dosing taking into consideration MS.

Be sure and keep us up to date on how the alpha lipoic acid seems to be working.

Thanks again for the info!

Sharon
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Postby MsWillow » Fri Apr 30, 2004 4:03 pm

Saliva test for hormones? Sounds useful. I'll have to ask about it on Monday. Good luck with your course, and keep us all informed, please.

This morning, my gingivitis was back. Bummer^3 :(

Prokarin is marketed as a treatment for MS. It's not approved, obviousl;y, though it did well in a test on fatigue (but with caffeine, I'd have expected that). It generally runs several hundred dollars a month, and at that price, of course the users all rabe about how good it is. Kinda hard to admit publicly that you're spending hundreds a month on what amounts to a double tall carmel machiato a day :-/
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Postby Shayk » Sun May 02, 2004 10:29 am

Thanks for the info on Prokarin. Can't believe I haven't seen anything about that yet, sounds like it's just as well tho!

Sorry to hear your gingivitis is back. :(

I will keep people posted on my hormone testing, but this whole scenario is taking much longer than I expected. I'm anticipating it will be 2-3 months before I know much since they want me to take my current HRT script for at least 2 months before I do the tests.

On and on it goes!

Hope you're doing better!

Sharon
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estriol

Postby Cathy » Mon May 03, 2004 12:52 pm

My gynecologist put me on 8 mg of estriol daily last June. I started LDN at the same time, and most days I feel better than I ever have. Taking copazone as well. Prior to that I had been having monthly premenstral exacerbations.
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estriol

Postby Cathy » Mon May 03, 2004 12:53 pm

My gynecologist put me on 8 mg of estriol daily last June. I started LDN at the same time, and most days I feel better than I ever have. Taking copazone as well. Prior to that I had been having monthly premenstral exacerbations.
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Postby Shayk » Tue May 04, 2004 1:32 pm

What great news! And, what a great ob/gyn.

I went to 3 and even to the chair of the ob/gyn dept. at a medical school with no luck before someone advised me to try my primary care doc.

Finally, my primary care doc gave me a script for low dose of hrt (estriol and ethinyl estradiol at 2.5 mg, + progesterone). I'm still hopeful I can eventually muster a script for the 8 mg of estriol tho.

My MS and menopausal symptoms cluster too, like clockwork. I count the number of hair I lose after shampooing in the a.m. and know immediately if it's going to be a bad MS day. They cluster for about 10 days per month too, night sweats, hot flashes, and MS symptoms.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you knew if it was the LDN or estriol? I think someone asked once if there was a potential connection between LDN and the estrogens.

I have no idea because I don't understand the LDN chemistry at all. (Nor really the chemistry of the estrogens.) However, my trusty book on HRT does say about estrogen: "Increases the level of serotonin and endorphins as well was other neurotransmitters." Does LDN increase the level of serotonin like estrogen? Anybody know?

Thanks!

Sharon
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Postby Cathy » Tue May 04, 2004 1:56 pm

from what I understand LDN increase endorphins. I tried estrogen/progesterone combo and got worse, then tried estradiol (estrace) and got a little better. The LDN increase spasicity when I first started so I stopped it for a month, then stayed on the 1 mg for a few months, but now, if I miss a dose of LDN, I can feel it. If I miss a dose of estriol, nothing changes.
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Postby Shayk » Tue May 04, 2004 6:42 pm

Very interesting. Sounds like you know pretty well what's going on with you.

It's my impression the estriol takes a while to build up, at least that's what they tell me is the reason they're waiting to test my hormone levels. But who knows, it's just such good news you're doing so well! :)

Sharon
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Postby Shayk » Sat May 15, 2004 7:50 pm

Hi

I still can't seem to get a summary of MS and Hormones together, (more questions than answers :lol: ), but for any of you who are really interested in this topic, I have located what I think is a good article on gender and MS.

It's by Patricia K. Coyle, entitled Gender-Specific Issues In MS, about 20 pages.

www.harcourt-international.com/e-books/pdf/770.pdf

A beginning
The significant impact of gender on MS also implicates the endocrine system. The immune, nervous, and endocrine systems have a special relationship. They are linked not only anatomically, but also through shared receptors and common products. These connections ensure system communication, with each organ influencing the others. All three systems produce shared cytokines, hormones, and neurotransmitters, including neuropeptides.


An ending
Gender-specific issues enter into every dimension of MS, inlcuding pathogenesis, prognosis, clinical manifestations, treatment decisions, and psychosocial features. Understanding the impact of gender on this neuroimmune disease is likely to lead to important insights into why MS occurs, with direct impact for therapy and management.


I didn't readily see info on the stress hormone "cortisol" in the article, which seems like it might be important in MS :roll:

For anyone who reads the article, I'd be interested in your comments. Thanks and take care all.

Sharon
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Postby Shayk » Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:51 pm

I know I need to "put up" or "shut up" on this topic, but I'm :lol: because it seems like every day I encounter something about hormones that could also be related to MS.

The "latest", is an on line article Study Links Estrogen to Rheumatoid Arthritis, by Salynn Boyles, June 3, 2004

New research may help explain estrogen's role in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases that afflict women far more often than men.

Women with rheumatoid arthritis tend to have fewer symptoms during pregnancy, when estrogen levels are high. Symptoms tend to worsen after they give birth and at menopause, when levels are low. Although a link between the female sex hormone and the autoimmune disease has long been suspected, the clinical evidence has been contradictory.....

Dallas' Baylor College of Dentistry report that estrogen directly influences key inflammation-causing chemicals, known as cytokines, that drive certain autoimmune diseases.....

In a laboratory study, the researchers investigated estrogen's connection to CD16, a molecule that regulates inflammation. They found that when estrogen levels were low, CD 16 levels increased........
It may be that estrogen plays a role.....but it may not be the only sex hormone that does.


MS is mentioned in the article, that can be found at:

http://dailynewsatt.net/cgi-bin/health? ... &src=webmd

Now, on another note, hard to find this on a day when my primary care doc said she would not order the saliva tests of all my different hormones that I've spent many months trying to obtain. "Because she didn't know much about that." :cry:

I'm just hoping the stress of that news doesn't whip my cortisol (stress hormone) levels so much out of wack that I get a relapse.

As I've mentioned earlier, what a trip this MS, happy to say though I'm not giving up on this. And guys, remember we all have the same hormones, just different amounts folks.

Be well all.

Sharon
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Postby finn » Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:19 am

Sorry, time to leave the board.

-finn
Last edited by finn on Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Testosterone and Estriol

Postby Shayk » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:49 pm

Finn

Hearing about that study is music to my ears. :D

Three years though? :(

I’m glad to hear you’re trying to keep your testosterone levels high though because there may be some good reasons for it.

From the article earlier in the thread, Gender-Specific Issues in MS

It is not known why male gender is associated with a worse prognosis. This may reflect in part the tendency for males to develop MS at a later age, around the time of falling testosterone levels……Testosterone levels are low in about 24 percent of MS men and are also low in women with MS.

You probably already knew that, but it makes it all the more interesting that these hormone levels in men and women have been noted in MS research. Who knows, maybe the frequently cited information about sexual dysfunction and decreased libido in men and women with MS is not due to nerve damage from lesions (which it seems like they assume in the literature), but from low testosterone and estrogen. Do they know for a fact that the sexual dysfunction/low libido is from nerve damage, or could that be another potential “mistaken” assumption about MS?

Back to testosterone, I think the researchers at UCLA have started the small trial on it based on their findings in those EAE mice that it was protective. And, in April they reported that there was a potential role for estriol treatment for men in addition to women with MS. Quoting from the abstract in the Journal of Neuroimmunology, April 2004:

EAE disease severity in both females and males was decreased with estriol treatment as compared to placebo. Finally, proinflammatory cytokine production during autoantigen-specific immune responses was decreased with estriol treatment in both females and males. These data support a potential role for estriol treatment for men in addition to women with MS.


So, you know what that means…just kidding here now, men will be taking estriol and women will be taking testosterone to treat MS. Now, that in itself could explain why no one’s been able to figure it out. :lol:

I guess I haven't given up just yet. :)

Sharon
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Progesterone and MS

Postby Shayk » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:07 pm

Got to do something on this thread...... :lol: Long post though.... :roll:

Another thread referenced The Myelin Project’s proposed research on progesterone, so I thought it was timely to post some information on that “hormone”.

While both of my trusty “hormone” books state progesterone is protective for myelin, the book on “What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause” by John Lee, also gives more information about reasons for pursuing research on progesterone and myelin.

1. The French professor (Etienne-Emile Baulieu) who will be one of the parties in The Myelin Project’s research on progesterone is credited with the discovery that progesterone is synthesized from Schwann cells within the central and peripheral nervous system, making it a “neurosteroid”.

2. He also discovered that progesterone promotes myelin repair.

3. Progesterone appears to give Schwann cells the ability to continually maintain the myelin sheath. “In fact, the Schwann cell itself makes progesterone for this function. Recent research shows that anything that interferes with progesterone receptors in Schwann cells stops the production of protective myelin.” (p. 99)

4. Progesterone is now in clinical trials as a possible treatment for moderate to severe brain injuries.

Now, for other stuff. It’s my understanding the rise and fall of progesterone levels in pregnancy somewhat mirror those of estriol.

That is, progesterone rises during pregnancy (when women have a tendency to have fewer MS relapses, and, drops after birth, (when women tend to experience relapses). In women of child-bearing age, progesterone also declines cyclically on a monthly basis, and it declines as well in older women experiencing perimenopause and menopause. Again, times when the limited bits of research would suggest that women may also experience a “worsening” of MS symptoms.

Now, here’s some of the very limited research on progesterone and MS. Since titles often tell me as much as I can understand, I’ll start with those. For anyone interested in the full abstract or article, I’ve listed the Pub Med number.

1. Estrogen and progesterone modulate monocyte cell cycle progression and apoptosis, by Thongngarm et al at the University of Mississippi Medical Center, who conclude: Sex steroid-induced effect on cell cycle transition and apoptosis are potential mechanisms by which pregnancy-induced cell-mediated immune suppression may occur. (PMID 12797519).

2. Progesterone inhibits glucocorticoid-induced murine thymocyte apoptosis, by McMurray, RW also in Mississippi. Sex and sex hormones modulate immune development and responses……These results suggest that anti-apoptotic effects of progesterone may influence T cell development and subsequent immune response. (PMID 11090704)

3. MRI in MS during the menstrual cycle: relationship with sex hormone patterns by Pozzilli et al in Italy. The ratio of progesterone/17-beta-estradiol during the luteal phase was significantly associated with both number and volume of enhancing lesions, providing support for a role of these hormones as immunomodulatory factors in MS. (PMID 10449131)

4. Correlation between sex hormones and magnetic resonance imaging lesions in MS, by Bansil et al, New Jersey. Conclusion: Estradiol and progesterone may influence disease activity in MS. If further studies confirm these results, it may be possible to develop therapy by altering levels of these hormones.

Now, just to make it all very confusing, the NMSS link on “Gender Gap Reaches Brain Cells” reports that the New Jersey colleagues

have found that estrogen but not progesterone or the male hormone testosterone, can increase the proliferation (growth and expansion) of immature cells capable of maturing and making new myelin.


All I can say is that my reading about hormones in general is that progesterone and estrogen have sort of a ying and yang relationship.

And, I will be writing to The Myelin Project asking them to please consider doing their research with bioidentical progesterone, not the derived progestin. All of my reading so far indicates that these hormones have a “lock and key” relationship and that synthetic progesterone, i.e, progestin, may not quite cut it. Just as they can’t patent estriol, I don’t think the drug companies could patent bioidentical progesterone.

Does anyone else have comments or information on progesterone and MS?

On a personal note, I’m waiting to get the results of my hormone level tests for estriol, estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and cortisol. What a trip!

Sharon
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progesterone

Postby Cathy » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:55 am

My understanding is this. When we ovulate, our progesterone level increases, and estrogen levels decrease. My first 2 years after diagnosis, and 2 years prior to diagnosis, I had monthly exacerbations-NOT a worsening of my symptoms, but exacerbations with new symptoms every month. I was given birth control pills, but becase they have progesterone in them, I was in one long exascerbation when I took them. Then thye put me on these patches-one was just estrogen, the other a combo (I think). Could not take the combo. Then they put me on estrace, and things started to get a little better. Then they put me on estriol, and things got a lot better. I still have my ovaries, and those with ovaries need progesterone, because estrogen alone can increase endometrial cancer. So I tried the progesterone cream, and again felt horrible. My body just does not seem to like progesterone. One thing about estriol, unlike estrace, or estradiol, it does not protect bones, or bladder. I have steriod induced osteoporosis, for which I take calcium, Vit D, and actonel (SP?), which is supposed to reverse the osteo. My GYN just gave me a vaginal estrogen cream to help with bladder, which has gotten worse since off the estrace, but I don't think its working (sorry to get off subject here) Anyway, again, I think some of us will benefit from progesterone, and some of us won't. But the research is exciting, even if it does not help me personally.
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Postby Felly » Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:53 am

Some speculation from me

I'm not 100% sure how the mechanism works with the affect of progesterone and estrogen on MS per se (though to my mind estrogen has the greater influence), however, I do think my MS flare ups before menstruation have more to do with the release of luteinizing hormone (LH). As this is caused by the greater amount of Nitric oxide (NO) production at this time.

As you may know NO is the big meanie in all this and anything that triggers greater amounts of NO is not good for MS. This is a very simple explanation as there are more than one type of NO and I haven't completely thought through the process but I think it may work something like this...

LH is released by the anterior pituitary and estrogen, in the form of estradiol, normally inhibits LH secretion however when it reaches a certain level there is a positive feedback to the anterior pituitary resulting in an increased level of LA. This happens around the mid follicular phase - and that is when I always get my flare up.

LH release is controlled by Nitric oxide, which in turn is controlled by oxytocin - a peptide, both of which have zillions of roles in the brain and endocrine system which I won't bore you with at the moment.

What blocks the release of LH? b-Endorphin block the release of luteinizing hormone (LH)-releasing hormone (LHRH) thereby
inhibiting secretion of LH. While the mechanism is not fully understood it probably does this by inhibiting the Nitric oxide pathways.

LDN by its action on b-endorphin is also thought to inhibit the same pathway.

So what I am curious to know is how many women taking LDN, that previously had flare ups or a definite increase in MS activity during menstruation, no longer have this activity (or have seen a decrease in this activity) since taking LDN?

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