NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:29 am

LC i am not actually certain, i just know iron is one nutrient that has better guidelines than many others in terms of assessing sufficiency - it's not just a 'normal' range. and in my experience when you are outside a known range (which again is more specific when you're talking serum ferritin) the doc will provide instructions for corrective supplementation. ps i found something interesting on zinc and villous atrophy - will post in my nutrition thread if you're interested.

maria can you clarify? do you have an iron absorption problem? i thought you were just wondering if acid reflux might affect magnesium absorption. i could be off base here!
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:35 am

I started taking the 10 mg Iron on my own...have not consulted my GP yet......the neuro told me over the phone about the iron deficiency he found but did not provide a number (how low) for it....he said he will send everything in the mail..

I have no idea whether or not I have an iron absorption problem......I'll have to call my GP
I was only wondering if acid reflux might affect magnesium absorption.

For now, I take the 10 mg iron + B complex half hour before meal, twice a day (morning and evening)....then I take the zinc and the vit D3, right after breakfast.....also, I started taking Omega 3...it has 600 EPA, 240 DHA, and 19 IU vit E....is that considered high potency?....I take the Omega 3 once a day, usually after dinner.

Thank you all for your replies!!
Maria
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:06 am

ah ha, ok. thanks maria :) no i don't know if or how magnesium would or could interfere with absorption except for its known competition with things like calcium etc.

anyway once you have the test results back from the neuro, your GP will probably be able to tell you more specifically what to aim for compared to where you are, and how much is needed per day for how long to achieve a better target level. if you fire the numbers this way i'll do what i can too :)

question: to your knowledge has your acid reflux been bad enough to cause any bleeding in the GI tract? if so that situation might set up another line of inquiry...

i will have a search around for absorption issues related to GERD. i know some acid reflux meds mess with absorption. are you on any of those? i would think the major way that GERD could interfere with mag absorption would be taking simultaneous calcium based antacid products.

as for your omega 3 product - can't hurt, and you may be able to consider taking more.

for comparison, the one i take has these amounts and is considered 'extra'.

http://www.nutritionhouse.com/omega-ext ... -p-10.html
type....................................: : 1 softgel amt / 2 softgel amt
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid)........: : 476 mg / 952 mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid).......: : 357 mg / 714 mg

the recommended daily intake is 2 softgels, taken with a meal. does yours suggest one daily with a meal?

btw mine also comes with some vit E, which is considered 'non-medicinal' (whaaat??) with no amount listed.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:51 am

My acid reflux has never caused any bleeding in the GI tract...I was on omeprazole for about a year back in 2010 but I stopped taking it at the end of 2010.....my acid reflux was caused mostly by stress....I gave up all the the things that I so enjoyed but caused acid reflux....like coffee, cigarettes, etc....however, whenever I'm stressed, I still get it....I try to stay away from all the antacids....I might take 1 Tums once a month or so...

As far as Omega-3 that I take, the recommended daily intake is 1 softgel, taken with a meal.....mine is from the Vitamin Shoppe...It also has vit E in it...19 IU

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/b ... id=VS-2393

Should I take 2 of them?

What about Krill Oil? Is it really better than Fish Oil?
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:26 am

good, no bleeding.

stress causes depletion of magnesium, among other things. it's also basically an anti-acid. if you use the right form in the right way (focus on diet first etc) it might help keep acid reflux out of the picture.

i would think you'd be fine to take 2 of the omega 3s if you wanted to. might be interesting to track if you notice any sort of difference.

as for krill oil, i haven't read much on the debate, but did find this study:

Metabolic Effects of Krill Oil are Essentially Similar to Those of Fish Oil but at Lower Dose of EPA and DHA, in Healthy Volunteers
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez

Also found this article:
The great Krill oil Versus fish oil debate. Who wins?
http://healthyomega3.com/krill-oil-vs-fish-oil/

i did like the points about the existing research, and also the bit about calculating the unit cost of the DHA in any given product. by and large a good one except for that question at the end about krill 'containing' shellfish. krill appears to be equivalent to more commonly consumed shellfish, as far as allergens are concerned.

Identification of Tropomyosins as Major Allergens in Antarctic Krill and Mantis Shrimp and Their Amino Acid Sequence Characteristics
http://www.springerlink.com/content/y5070r87j1p2p100/
Quantification by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay revealed that Antarctic krill contains tropomyosin at almost the same level as decapods, suggesting that its allergenicity is equivalent to decapods.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:38 pm

cocolulu wrote:I started taking the 10 mg Iron on my own...have not consulted my GP yet......the neuro told me over the phone about the iron deficiency he found but did not provide a number (how low) for it....he said he will send everything in the mail..

I have no idea whether or not I have an iron absorption problem......I'll have to call my GP
I was only wondering if acid reflux might affect magnesium absorption.

For now, I take the 10 mg iron + B complex half hour before meal, twice a day (morning and evening)....


I apologize for my continued focus on iron; I have no personal experience with it myself, I am only remembering things I have heard. Some people have mentioned having a problem with constipation when they take iron supplementation. Maria, you might be alert for such a problem developing, you might drink more water than usual, you might be conscious of eating more fiber, you might even take some Metamucil capsules to avoid a potential problem (Metamucil will not hurt you.).
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:07 pm

lol LC i will apologize for my focus on magnesium to include as well the known laxative effects of the less soluble forms such as mag oxide. fyi maria, in case you're noticing any binding tendencies :)
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:47 am

Thank you both, LC and JL for your replies!
Since starting this rich magnesium and zinc diet, believe me....noooo problems with constipation!!!..:))

I have finally gotten my lab results in the mail. Jimmylegs, maybe you can help with this one, please:

Copper 93 mcg/dL

Zinc 100 mcg/dL

Uric Acid 3.4 mg/dL

Iron Binding Capacity: Transferrin 205 mg/dL
Iron, SRM 32 mcg/dL
Total Iron Binding Capacity 287 mcg/dL

Magnesium 2.2 mg/dL

Protein Eletrophoresis....not sure if you need the results for this, but if you do, I have them (it includes, Albumin, Gamma, Beta, etc)

Vitamin B6 1.62

Vitamin E 10.6 mg/L

One thing to mention is that these tests were run prior to me starting the Zn and Cu supplements and the Iron + B-complex ones...also the Omega 3.

Thank you all again for your support!!
Maria
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby DougL » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:53 am

cocolulu wrote:Since starting this rich magnesium and zinc diet, believe me....noooo problems with constipation!!!..:))


love to see people laughing. keep it up cocolulu
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:21 pm

hi this is awesome. having all these results. good job :D

okay, i just did a whole huge thing on copper for someone else and the target level that came out of that was around 110-114 as a mean serum level seen in healthy controls (normal range is in the neighbourhood of 70-150 or 75-145 mcg/dL

your zinc is closer to the ms part of the normal range. the healthy controls in research sit closer to 120 mcg/dL.

as for uric acid, let's see .... i don't know that target in mg/dL so will convert... mg/dL 59.48 µmol/L .. 3.4 x 59.48 = 202 µmol/L
yep, that's ms territory - if you can get your zinc levels up to 120, that uric acid level should come up too. try to aim for 290.
(zinc and UA don't apperar to be in perfect lockstep or anything, but it should help. my last zinc test came back 14 point something and uric acid was 230ish.)

arg all those great iron tests and no serum ferritin :( i have to go do a little homework before i can respond to that one

magnesium 2.2 mg/dL i have to convert that too... x.411 = 0.9 mmol/L - that's borderline (ie centre of the normal range but any lower and correction is recommended in the research lit) so, you can try to push that higher too. i've seen values like 1.1 mmol/L given as optimal but i'm still working on backing that up properly... definitely staying solidly higher than .90 is important though.

sure, fire me the albumin maybe.

i don't have info on B6 other than it's one water soluble vitamin that does have potential toxicity implications if taken at levels over i think 100mg long term. it's been a while since i had my eyes on the B6 literature so hard to say

and, as for vit E, i need to look that up and get back to you on that too.

really good that you have this baseline test data. will be excellent for comparison's sake down the line. helps you determine efficacy of your regimen.

i'll be back re the iron and vit e stuff.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:27 pm

okay i'm using the table on wikipedia for this so not perfectly accurate numbers - click the link and check out the table, you'll see what i mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_ ... lood_tests

Iron Binding Capacity: Transferrin 205 mg/dL - normal range looks to be around 200-300 so that does look on the low end of the spectrum

Iron, SRM 32 mcg/dL - total serum iron is all over the place for women, more than likely d.t. menstruation.. 30-170 or so. for men it's more like 70-180. again pretty low.

Total Iron Binding Capacity 287 mcg/dL - TIBC looks like around 250-450, so again, yep on the low side.

check this out - the characteristics of iron status in chronic disease... i'm extra curious as to your ferritin number now
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... /test#what

oh and one more thing
Serum Iron (SI)/Total Iron Binding Capacity (TIBC) x100 = Transferrin Saturation (TS) %

32/287x100 = 11% that is also low.

full text article on anemia of chronic disease - http://www.med.unc.edu/medclerk/medsele ... nemia2.pdf
it is a dysregulation problem so supplementing is not going to target the root of the problem. iron dysregulation is a known issue when zinc levels are out of whack though.

this article is on iron deficiency anemia not specifically anemia of chronic illness but the point is, consider zinc too.

Increased serum copper and decreased serum zinc levels in children with iron deficiency anemia
http://www.springerlink.com/content/221564100305088g/

Serum zinc levels were lower in the patient group (109 ± 59 Μg/dL) than those of control subjects (135 ± 56 Μg/dL) (p = 0.017).

so with your zinc levels, you match the anemic kids in the study - and look at those serum zinc levels in the healthy controls! average 135 converts to 20.5 umol/L! that's a new one on me.

another study - again they're talking about kids, but this is another article which speaks to supplementing zinc when iron is low (although they had again iron deficiency anemia, not anemia of chronic diease

Effects of separate delivery of zinc or zinc and vitamin A on hemoglobin response, growth, and diarrhea in young Peruvian children receiving iron therapy for anemia
http://www.ajcn.org/content/80/5/1276.short
"Adding zinc to iron treatment increases hemoglobin response, improves iron indexes"

and then here's a bunch of links to other discussion on zinc, the uric acid and glutathione connection, and iron dysregulation (by the way i learned recently that selenium status is also correlated with glutathione levels)

general-discussion-f1/topic10019.html#p90335

and a relevant study link
Zinc Deficiency-induced Iron Accumulation, a Consequence of Alterations in Iron Regulatory Protein-binding Activity, Iron Transporters, and Iron Storage Proteins
http://www.jbc.org/content/283/8/5168.full

anyway. that's enough about iron for now :)

on to the vitamin E - looks like optimal serum tocopherol would be around 12-20 mg/L (using that same huge wikipedia chart) so you appear to be on the low side for that too.
but DON'T supplement alpha tocopherol. instead, boost vit E rich foods like raw sunflower seeds and dark leafy greens
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=111
if you do supplement, choose an E8 complex with natural ratios of all 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:53 am

Like always, thank you so much for all the info provided!! You're a great help!!....I wish my family doctor would be a quarter as helpful or willing to help as you are!!..:)

I went to see her on Tuesday and she basically kicked me out of her office.....she seemed very irritated when I told her that I started taking some supplements even though the results did not show deficiency for them (like zinc, magnesium, B-complex)....she goes "why would you do that?!...why would you take supplements when you're not deficient?!".....I tried to tell her that even though I was not diagnosed with MS, my symptoms are very MS-like so I'm trying to adopt a supplements and diet regimen that address MS....she looked at me like I was nuts....very uncomfortable...
She then said that her recommendation is for me to start Neurontin....I asked "why Neurontin?"....she said "for nerve pain"....I said "but I have no pain; I have weakness, needles and tingling"...she goes "then, that's your diagnosis....nerve irritation"....
She then said she would not be able to help me if I decide to go the supplements route.....
She referred me to the Bastyr Centre....she said maybe they would be able to help.....naturopathic medicine...
Her last statement before leaving the room (by the way she didn't even let me know she was done with my visit....I thought she left the room to go get the print out for the Bastyr Centre....the nurse brought the print out to me and told me the doctor was done seeing me.....grrreeeat)...was that she sees no reason for me to repeat the tests for minerals in a couple of months since the results were ok the first time.....what so you say about that???

I'm looking for a new GP...

In the mean time, the twitching and muscle spasms have decreased considerably...even my fiance noticed i don't kick him at night anymore....yyyaayy!!

I was thinking of starting 600 mg ALA and 1300 mg EPO, twice a day for a while...it's what they call a Diabetic Peripheral Neuropathy cocktail....it's supposed to be very effective for nerve regeneration....Jimmylegs, could you please help me on this one?
Do ALA and EPO deplete any of the minerals I'm already taking (Zn, Cu, Omega 3, Iron, and B-complex)?

Oh, forgot to mention....went to see the eye doctor....he says everything is ok.....he gave me antihistamine drops for what he believes it's allergies....I've never had allergies!!!!.....uuugghh these doctors....


ttys
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:04 am

hi coco, no worries, glad to help. somebody needs to.

unfortunately, some doctors do not seem to understand that defining deficiency as outside the 'normal' range would seem in many cases to be both illogical and irresponsible.

i think you might be better off saying you're adopting a diet and supplement regimen for 'optimal health' so that as much as possible, you don't step on a defensive doc's diagnostic toes.

as for the neurontin for nerve pain, i think technically needles and tingling are considered spectrum variations of the same neurological issue.

nobody needs a doc that doesn't understand hippocrates: "Our food should be our medicine. Our medicine should be our food."

your body is most certainly not low in neurontin.

and as for the followup mineral tests, you can show research to indicate that the levels while 'normal' are not 'healthy', and you can also say 'how will i know if my levels have not gone toxically high'?

perhaps this bastyr centre might be an option. but don't let them sell you anything unnecessary! i know someone who got tested for b12 and it was 790 or something and they put her on injections. of cyanocobalamin no less. to me that is an outright scam.

bottom line if you can find a way to get tests without paying through the nose, leave it at that.

where are you, can you order lab test requisitions online via somewhere like life extension or whatever it's called? wish i had that option here... anyway. let me know :) ttfn
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:46 am

hey jimmylegs, I'm in Seattle...i could probably do that...order them on-line....see, I have a really good insurance that pays for almost everything...I would hate to go somewhere where I have to pay cash....just because my stupid doctor refuses to listen...

Anyway, thank you very much for the reply! it really helps.

Any feedback on the ALA and the EPO interaction with the minerals and the other vits I'm taking?
Thanks a lot!!
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:29 pm

as for ALA and EPO, i'm sort of 'meh' on those.

from what i can tell, ALA is the kind of thing your body is supposed to make on its own. i prefer to support biological processes with essential nutrients and *essential* fatty acids. i would tend to consider an alpha lipoic acid supplement a crutch that would give normal body processes and excuse to be lazy. also, i am pretty sure all ALA supplements are synthetic.

as for EPO, i think it's higher in O-6 EFA than O-3.. and i think Omega 6 is more common in a typical diet, whereas Omega-3 is less commonly consumed and therefore more important to boost in order to correct ratios.

just my opinion.

anyway, if you can get a different, more open minded doctor easily, and still keep your great coverage, go for it!

yvw :)
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