NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 14, 2012 1:05 pm

okay that's an odd recommendation since your body has to convert D2 to D3. and why take 5 times the suggested physiological limit..? even if you absorbed D2 just as well as D3 (which you don't) you'd basically be throwing 4/5ths of it away.

re zinc, yes that is the same value, just my units. if you can get another test it would be good to see how your regimen has been affecting the levels.

your proposed plan re 15mg zn with 1mg cu sounds good for now, but do get that test redone. there are a few interactions going on in your case and you need the test result to make sure your zinc levels are on track.

for you, the iron and b-complex will really help energy levels. i wish you had a ferritin level because that's the one i could compare to the research i've done. it's not the best test, yours are great, but testing ferritin is still a good first approximation.

did you start taking an evening dose of 'natural calm' mag citrate? taking calcium magnesium and zinc will help your body make D3 from sun too. between these and the b-complex and iron, they're probably all working together to make you feel great :D

i feel great, thanks :) i don't have bad days. not quite 100%, i have given up on restoring perfect feeling in my hands and feet. ignoring neurological stuff, my skin got bad recently, i'm working on that with vitamin d3 but for all the neuro stuff, i'm plateaued at as good as i'm ever going to get. i'm too heavy for my liking but i just don't get enough exercise even though i have a job you'd consider active. if every day was like today, i would probably be great - just got home from a 7 km hike.

so, on the contrary, i usually can figure out exactly what will work :D i felt a virus sniffing around yesterday but we had hemlock tea made up so i chugged two cups for the vit C and took my supplements properly today, that virus never stood a chance >:D

you're welcome! be well :)
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Tue May 15, 2012 8:43 am

Hey there, Jimmylegs.

I just got my vit D results back:

Here they are:

Component Previous Results (Feb) New Results (May)
Vitamin D2 (25_Hydroxy) <1.0 26.7
Vitamin D3 (25_Hydroxy) 13.8 14.8
Vit D (25_Hydroxy) Total 13.8 41.5

I'm a little confused...which one should I monitor? D2, D3 or the Total?
So, I'm thinking of stopping the D2 and start supplementing D3....will 2000 IU per day be enough?
I've been sitting in the sun for the past 3 days....I feel great!!....I can really tell the difference the sun makes...unfortunately, the weather forecast anounces rain for all of next week and then it goes on and on for who knows how long...:((...should I supplement vit D3 just in the days when I do not sit in the sun or should I supplement regardless of sun exposure?

Yes, I started taking an evening dose of the Natural Calm (Mg+Ca).....so now I take a dose in the morning and one at night. I really like Natural Calm...it provides a good dose of the elemental Mg :)

Glad to hear you're feeling great!! I hope I'll be able to say the same for myself soon!!

Thank you for all your help!
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 15, 2012 1:45 pm

ohhhhhh *that's* why he put you on D2. omg. i'm pretty confident there's a typo in there and that the "D3" fraction should have (1,25-hydroxy) after it, not the same as the "D2" fraction above it.

here's the problem i think is going on here. once your body makes D3 in the skin, it has three metabolites in your blood

1. cholecalciferol
2. 25 hydroxycholecalciferol (sometimes known as calciDIol)
3. 1,25 dihydroxycholecalciferol (aka calciTRIol)

there's more than that, i am over-simplifying, but that's all we need for this discussion at the moment.

anyway the active metabolite of D3 (1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol) is tightly regulated. 25-hydroxycholecalciferol or calciDIol is your stockpile for making D3. that's what was really depleted in your feb results. that's my strong suspicion at least.

supplemental vit D2 is not 25-hydroxycholecalciferol. it is ergocalciferol, a plant sourced supplement. supplemental vit D3 is sourced from lamb's wool (or in marketing parlance i've heard 'from the sunny meadows of new zealand').

The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin supplement
http://www.ajcn.org/content/84/4/694.full
"Vitamin D2, or ergocalciferol, should not be regarded as a nutrient suitable for supplementation or fortification."

i think we should never refer to 'vitamin' D as '2' or '3' at all. it's pretty easy to be clear about supplemental forms and serum forms. in fact i think i will make some changes to some of my summary posts.

we need to be very clear that what we're dealing with are not vitamins. i tend to think of vit D now, in almost the same way i've come to think of uric acid or glutathione peroxidase etc etc etc. except that it is possible to eat foods containing 25-hydroxyvitamin d3 to add to our stores.

so anyway. you are interested primarily in 25-hydroxyvitamin D3, the one that they're calling 'D2' (even though that's so likely to be confused with ergocalciferol).

if your diet is maxed for zinc, calcium and magnesium content, and your serum zinc status stays up and you're taking lots of natural calm, etc etc, plus time in the sunshine, i think 2000IU per day should be plenty for supplemental D3.

i would think, supplement regardless. your level of 26.7, i'm assuming that the units are ng/mL, is still too low to even prevent osteoporosis. 26.7 converts to 66 nmol/L and you want to aim for more like 60 ng/mL or 150 nmol/L. make sure you get more follow up bloodwork in say, august. to see where you're at.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Wed May 16, 2012 8:22 am

Hi Jimmylegs,

The supplements the GP gave me are ergocalciferol (Drisdol) or, as the name on the bottle says, vit D2 1.25 mg (50,000 IU).

My test results have no indication of 1,25-hydroxy.
Also, I'm still confused on which one of the Ds I'm supposed to monitor....the test results are for Vit D2, Vit D3 and Total.
My results all mention 25-hydroxy...the only difference in the name is the D2, D3 or Total.

If I start taking supplements of D3, would that also raise the Vitamin D2 (25_Hydroxy) (the one that's 26.7 ng/mL right now)?

Thanks a bunch!
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 16, 2012 1:12 pm

yea that's what i figured.

from what you are saying, i am pretty sure there is a mistake on the lab printout and that their 'D3' fraction (calcitriol) should be listed as (1,25 dihydroxy).

so i'd say take d3, and monitor 25-hydroxycholecalciferol (aka calcidiol) - which your lab happens to be calling 'D2' just to confuse things (successfully :S ).

yes taking supplemental d3 will raise serum 25-hydroxyvitaminD3 (aka calcidiol, the one they're calling D2)

clear as mud?? :S
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby want2bike » Fri May 18, 2012 8:28 am

You might want to check out Dr. Swanks book. He did a 50 year study on MS. Essentially if shows the relation of treating MS by eliminating the saturated fats. All the healthy diets consist of limiting process foods and animal products. The raw fruits and vegetables will give your body the vitamins and minerals it needs to repair itself. Dr. Swanks program is the easiest to follow since you do not have to give up as much. Maybe start there and then later take it further.

http://www.franksherwood.com/tnms.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNCGkprG ... re=related
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby cocolulu » Fri May 18, 2012 10:06 am

Thanks a lot for the info, want2bike! I've been reading a lot about the different diets recommended for MS and it seems the Swanks diet is indeed the easiest to follow.
I have changed my diet and is now, in great part, following the Swank diet.

Jimmylegs, what brand of multivit do you use?

I've just ordered some Magnesium Glycinate.

Here's my regimen at the moment:
1X200 mg Selenium
1X2000 IU D3
1X 10 ml Iron + B-complex twice daily
1X15 mg Zn + 1 mg Cu every other day
1X160 mg Magnesium Citrate (elemental) + Ca twice daily

I haven't started taking any vit E yet. My test results were goos last time I checked. I also eat a lot of sunflower seeds (4-5 times/week)

My eye has been bothering me lately....I can't seem to be able to sit in front of the computer for too long anymore...my eyes get really tired and my vision goes blurry.....sometimes it gets so bad that I have to raise my head and go for a walk every 5 minutes.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to ameliorate this?

Thanks fo all your support!

Maria
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 18, 2012 4:06 pm

heya! i use 'progressive active women'
http://www.progressivenutritional.com/e ... women.html
i take 2 to 3 per day, depending.

good call re ordering magnesium glycinate.

as for vision, was it you who didn't feel good taking zinc daily? because my first response re vision issues would be to take zinc daily and ensure you have plenty of vit A and beta-carotene going in. also make sure you eat kale and spinach often, they are good sources of lutein (plus spinach contains a little zinc too).

TGIF :)
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 18, 2012 5:21 pm

fyi rat study - lots of things affected when taking d3, noticeable difference with or without zinc in the mix too:

Vitamin D Supplementation Modulates Blood and Tissue Zinc, Liver Glutathione and Blood Biochemical Parameters in Diabetic Rats on a Zinc-Deficient Diet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22410949
"The serum total cholesterol, triglycerides, total protein, urea, glutamate oxaloacetate transaminase, glutamate pyruvate transaminase and blood glucose values were higher in rats fed a zinc adequate diet, but their concentrations were decreased by vitamin D3 supplementation... These results suggest that vitamin D3 modulates tissue zinc, liver glutathione and blood biochemical values in diabetic rats fed a zinc-deficient diet."
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby lyndacarol » Fri May 18, 2012 5:43 pm

Jimmylegs, I am currently reading The Blood Sugar Solution by Dr. Mark Hyman. I thought you would find this passage from his basic plan interesting:

(Page 321) Magnesium
Diets low in magnesium are associated with increased insulin levels, and magnesium deficiency is common in diabetics. Magnesium helps glucose enters the cells and turn those calories into energy for your body.

Some with severe magnesium deficiency may need more than the amount outlined above [100-200 mg of magnesium, once with breakfast and once with dinner]. Some may need less. If you are concerned you may be severely deficient, discuss the details with your doctor. Diarrhea is often a sign that you are getting too much magnesium. If this occurs, just back off on the dose, and avoid magnesium carbonate, sulfate, gluconate, or oxide. They are the cheapest and most common forms found in supplements but are poorly absorbed. Switch to magnesium glycinate. If you tend to be constipated, use magnesium citrate. People with kidney disease or severe heart disease should take magnesium only under a doctor's supervision.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Fri May 18, 2012 6:24 pm

yep there are absolutely strong links LC, check out this list of research, i have posted this before in some context or other:

http://www.mgwater.com/listc.shtml#diabetes
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jackD » Mon May 21, 2012 9:21 pm

There are two supplements that are GREAT for almost everything except constipation.

PYCNOGENOL 100 MG TWICE A DAY

PTEROSTILBENE 100 MG TWICE A DAY

jackD

p.s. YOU check it out ...I am going to go to bed early tonight. You can sprinkle some Zinc on them to add a little flavor.

I hate to say it but some of the research on these have not been published yet! The French(Pterostilbene) and Germans(Pygenogenol) are a little slow it getting it into the public arena.
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Re: NEW TO MS....PLEASE HELP!!! Supplements question

Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm

phytochemicals have their place, my honours thesis is alllll about traditional plant medicines, but they are essentially drugs, not nutrients.
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