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Postby JenniferF » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:50 am

Hi, I'm Jennifer, brand new to this forum, have been reading a little bit.

I've been enjoying very mild neurological symptoms for the past year or so -- primarily intermittent numbness/reduced sensation, 'stiffness' [not actually stiff, but feels that way when I move], and 'weakness' [not necessarily actual weakness, who knows, but it feels that way] in my right arm/hand and leg/foot. Doesn't interfere with normal life (aside from the time we spent worrying about it and trying to make it go away), though very occasionally it threatens to, ie the leg will feel wobbly or the fingers get uncoordinated -- but I still manage to do what ever I was doing those couple of times something like that has happened.

Have ruled most of the famous and easily-diagnosed alternatives (vitamin deficiency, lyme disease, etc), and I'm currently just watching and waiting. Am rather tired of spending money on physicians who don't really know what to do with me. Have had several recommendations to get MS ruled-out, but with docs not so much thinking I had it as wanting to cover all bases -- when I pushed back they agreed. Since my symptoms are so mild, and we have ruled out any kind of peripheral nerve damage that could be treated or needs to be dealt with ASAP, I'm not really in a hurry to pursue further diagnosis. Honestly one of my concerns is that with such mild symptoms it will not be possible to get a conclusive diagnosis, so I'll have just spent a lot of time & money to be told to wait and see if things get worse.

That said, this looks like a good place to learn more, and worst case scenario I'll meet some nice people with whom I may or may not share a common ailment.

Aside from all this I'm a homeschooling housewife to four kids ages 2, 4, 6 & 8, and in my free time (ha ha) enjoy writing, history, outdoor sports, gardening, going to the library, and goofing off on the internet.

So nice to meet you all and thanks for having me!

Jennifer.
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:37 am

hi jen, and welcome :) i'm the vittymin nut here, if you tell me your nutrient results (did they do more than the standard b12?) i can most likely tell you whether they're in the good part of the normal range, or the "ms" part. or at least i could tell you some levels to aim for in a few things. you might want to ask for some mineral tests too. like zinc, and rbc magnesium. and a uric acid test.
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Postby JenniferF » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:26 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hi jen, and welcome :) i'm the vittymin nut here, if you tell me your nutrient results (did they do more than the standard b12?) i can most likely tell you whether they're in the good part of the normal range, or the "ms" part. or at least i could tell you some levels to aim for in a few things. you might want to ask for some mineral tests too. like zinc, and rbc magnesium. and a uric acid test.


I'm happy to hear any ideas. I don't have copies of everything, but of what I do have:

is uric acid the same thing as urine PH? If yes, mine was 6.
B12 was 607
sodium 142
potassium 3.8
chloride 104
calcium 10.1

Those are the only mineraly things I see on the list. Of course I wish I had my other records, but I was so completely done with the guy who ran them that I didn't have it in me to deal with the staff. Everything dates from Jan 08 / Dec 07.


thanks.

Jen.
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:49 pm

your b12 looks enviable!
nope uric acid is not urine ph. you can read up on it at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
did you get units for any of those other levels? i don't have my own file here so i can't compare. i'll be back with my files by sept 7.

besides rbc magnesium, zinc, and uric acid, d3 is a useful thing to have tested. 25hydroxyvitamind3, to be exact.

the literature to support the investigation of these things in ms cases is out there. if you need to take anything to your doc i can probably drum up a few links, but also if you search for related posts here you should get a lot of abstracts to keep you busy!
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Postby JenniferF » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:27 pm

jimmylegs wrote:your b12 looks enviable!
nope uric acid is not urine ph. you can read up on it at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid
did you get units for any of those other levels? i don't have my own file here so i can't compare. i'll be back with my files by sept 7.

besides rbc magnesium, zinc, and uric acid, d3 is a useful thing to have tested. 25hydroxyvitamind3, to be exact.

the literature to support the investigation of these things in ms cases is out there. if you need to take anything to your doc i can probably drum up a few links, but also if you search for related posts here you should get a lot of abstracts to keep you busy!


I was just too lazy to type them out ;-). Here you go:


B12 was 607 pg/ml
sodium 142 mmol/L
potassium 3.8 mmol/L
chloride 104 mmol/L
calcium 10.1 mg/dL

Thanks for the suggestions, if I go to do another round I will ask for those. Right now I've got physician phatigue. When I next need to go to my GP (for whatever random thing comes up), maybe we'll do another burst. Guess I should make notes now so I'm not behind the gun then.

Thanks!

Jennifer
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:00 pm

hey there, ohhh so it's about 450 in my language :) most people would say that that b12 result is still a pretty darned good number. well within the normal range in most places. if you trust the normal range. but you're getting pretty close to the line for CSF b12 deficiency. i try to keep my level over 500, which would be about 680 for you. once you drop under 600, that's unhappy time for the spine.

check this out - here's an article that sums up the research nicely:

High-dose vitamin B12 for at-home prevention and reversal of Alzheimer's disease and other diseases
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n16359687

"Mammals, including humans, are born with serum levels of vitamin B12 at about 2,000 pg/ml (picograms--i.e., trillionths of a gram, per milliliter)"

:!: :!: :!:
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Alzheimer's/Insulin-Degrading Enzyme

Postby lyndacarol » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:49 am

JL--there are researchers now publishing a connection between Alzheimer's and the Insulin-Degrading Enzyme (IDE)--Dennis J. Selkoe at Harvard has described that IDE breaks down Amyloid Beta (suspected cause of Alzheimer's) but is preferentially drawn to insulin, thus leaving the amyloid to accumulate in the brain. WJ Tang at the University of Chicago is another; Bonnie Miller in Texas, too.

The Mediterranean Diet (producing less insulin becausing it is low-carb?) has been associated with lower incidence of Alzheimer's, or even improvement. Hmmm....
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:02 am

interesting!

i went googling for links between cobalamin and amyloid-b, ide.

The current high life expectancy is overshadowed by neurodegenerative illnesses that lead to dementia and dependence. Alzheimer’s disease (AD) is the most common of these conditions, and is considered to be a proteinopathy, with amyloid-b42 as a key factor, leading via a cascade of events to neurodegeneration. Major factors involved are oxidative stress, perturbed Ca homeostasis and impaired energy metabolism. Protection against oxidative stress by micronutrients (including secondary bioactive substances) has been shown in transgenic Alzheimer model systems to delay AD. Epidemiological evidence is less conclusive, but the vast majority of the evidence supports a protective effect on cognitive functions in old age and AD. Thus, a diet rich in fruits and vegetables but also containing meat and fish is the most suitable to provide adequate micronutrients. The strong link between cardiovascular risk and AD may be explained by common pathogenetic mechanisms mediated, for example, by homocysteine and thus dependant on B-vitamins (folate and vitamins B12 and B6). However, micronutrients may also be harmful. The high affinity of amyloid for metals (Fe, Al and Zn) favours the generation of reactive oxygen species and triggers an inflammatory response.
Micronutrients in a balanced diet have a long-lasting, albeit low, protective impact on brain aging, hence prevention should be life long.


found not an abstract but a journal TOC which gave homocysteine lowering as one possible "pathway for drug development" (or just take b12), and a-beta clearance.

Alzheimer's disease-diabetes connection explained

A study published in the December 8 2004 issue of the Journal of Neuroscience reported that a shortage of a protein called insulin degrading enzyme occurs in the brains of Alzheimer's patients, and established for the first time a cause and effect relationship between insulin signaling and increased production of the protein. Insulin-degrading enzyme (IDE) is involved in eliminating amyloid peptides that form plaques in the brains afflicted with Alzheimer's disease.

The increased risk of Alzheimer's disease experienced by individuals with type 2 diabetes has generated interest in the relationship of insulin signalling to the disease. Diabetes is characterized by insulin resistance and reduced insulin secretion, leading to an elevation of blood glucose.

Lead author and professor of medicine and neurology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Greg M Cole, PhD, and colleagues studied fetal rat brain cultures and brain tissue from humans with Alzheimer's disease. They also examined the brains of adult mice bred to develop amyloid who were given a diet in which the source of fat was safflower oil, or a standard diet whose fat content was provided by soy and fish oil. A safflower oil based diet provides almost no omega-3 fatty acids, and has been found to speed up Alzheimer's-like conditions in the brains of laboratory animals.

The team found that insulin increased IDE protein in fetal rat brain tissue. In human brains afflicted with Alzheimer's disease, a deficiency of IDE protein was observed. And in the brains of mice whose source of dietary fat was from safflower oil rather than fish and soy, IDE levels were lower than in those from mice on the standard diet.

The findings explain the association between type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer's disease, and show that the protective IDE protein can be increased by dietary manipulation.


it's in the brain... b12 and the cns... (and O3 apparently!)

i also ran across this:

Antibiotic combats Alzheimer's disease
BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS.
Two years ago researchers at the Massachusetts General Hospital reported that the antibiotic clioquinol inhibited and even reduced the build-up of amyloid plaques in the brain of mice engineered to developed Alzheimer-like deposits. Now researchers at the Harvard Medical School and the University of Melbourne are about to release the results of a phase II trial involving the use of clioquinol in human Alzheimer's patients. So far the findings are extremely promising. Clioquinol treatment slowed down the disease and significantly reduced the accumulation of beta-amyloid plaques, a cardinal feature of Alzheimer's.
Dr. Ashley Bush of the Harvard Medical School believes that Alzheimer's disease begins when iron, copper and zinc accumulates in the brain and turns beta-amyloid into a rogue enzyme that catalyses the production of hydrogen peroxide which then attacks and destroys brain cells. In the process beta-amyloid forms into the long chain of insoluble plaque so characteristic of Alzheimer's. Dr. Bush believes that clioquinol works by removing (chelating?) the metals from the brain. This, in turn, stops the formation of hydrogen peroxide and thus the destruction of brain cells and also prevents the beta-amyloid particles from clumping together. There is some concern that clioquinol depletes vitamin-B12 in the body so vitamin B12 supplementation is a must when taking clioquinol.
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Postby JenniferF » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:24 am

jimmylegs wrote:hey there, ohhh so it's about 450 in my language :) most people would say that that b12 result is still a pretty darned good number. well within the normal range in most places. if you trust the normal range. but you're getting pretty close to the line for CSF b12 deficiency. i try to keep my level over 500, which would be about 680 for you. once you drop under 600, that's unhappy time for the spine.
:!: :!: :!:


Thanks!
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