Which of these vitamins are not necessary?

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Which of these vitamins are not necessary?

Postby dc10 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:02 am

Out of these vitamins, which would not be necessary for an MS and CCSVI sufferer?

Calcium
Magnesium
Zinc
Copper
Omega 3 Fish Oils
Cod Liver oil

MSM
Selenium
Beta Carotene
Grapeseed extract
Green Tea extract
Milk Thistle extract

Vitamin B50
Vitamin C
Vitamin D3
Vitamin E
Vitamin B12


Also i take a Calcium/Magnesium combined tablet 2times daily, this one:

<shortened url>

would it be better to take calcium and magnesium in two seperae tablets?
- i also take a separate 1x Magnesium citrate tablet too (100mg)


Thank you for all replies
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Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:51 am

what is the ratio in the cal/mag blend? i'd keep taking a seperate mag.. depending on the answer. calcium and vit K are needed for blood clotting. you need calcium and vit K but you need them in the right amounts relative to magnesium and other nutrients.

what is the ratio of zinc to copper? my zinc supplement is 50mg and includes 2mg copper.

i wouldn't think you need to take vitamin d3 plus cod liver oil. fish oil is a definite keeper.

selenium - how much 200mcg? you definitely need this one, but you could substitute a couple brazil nuts per day instead of the pill, if you like.

i'd probably swap out the beta carotene for a multivit/multimineral so that you get things like manganese etc.

with a b50 in the mix you might not need the extra b12.

i'd watch the form of vit E you're taking. vit E8 complex is best.

other than calcium and K, all these other nutrients are needed for proper blood clotting.

i don't have comments on:

MSM
Grapeseed extract
Green Tea extract
Milk Thistle extract

hope that helps!
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Postby dc10 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:53 am

Hi jimmylegs,

this shows the type of calcium,/magnesium in the rtablet:
<shortened url>
it is 400mg calcium and 200mg magnesium in the tablet, which i take two at times in the day,

z/c - i take 75mg Zinc in the morning and 2mg Copper at night,

Selenium - its 200mcg with Vitamins A,C,E included:
<shortened url>
these are the amounts


Vitamin E - i take this 1000IU natural Vit E:
http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... 621&cid=69

I cant find a E8 complex Vit E here in the UK.

are these vitamins only helpful for blod clotting?
i was hoping they could improve neurological function/myelin repair

Ill finish the remaining b12 and cod liver oil then stop them,
Is vitamin K essential for MSers/CCSVI'ers? i thought it contradicted with vits that thin the blood like gingko?

Forgot to say i take gingko bilabo in the morning

youre a great help , thank you :)

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Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:51 am

hey no probs. i <3 gingko biloba even though i have not taken any in ages.

dc do you have any random symptoms like spasticity, shortness of breath, insomnia, facial tics, trouble swallowing, racing heartbeat, headaches, muscle pain, etc?

looking at your cal mag supplement, it's a calcium to mag ratio 2:1. when you take the extra mag, you're getting the daily ratio to approximate 1:1. depending on your diet and symptoms, you may want to get your magnesium intake a little higher in relation to calcium. if you feel muscle weakness, you may need more calcium. if muscles feel tense/painful/spastic, you may need more magnesium.

75mg zinc daily is a bit high unless you have big lifestyle zinc drains on your system. 2mg copper is perfect though.

that selenium sounds awesome.

boo! that holland vit E is not a complex at all by the looks of it! isolated alpha tocopherol supplementation can actually be dangerous, especially in doses over 400IU/d - please consider discontinuing the use of that product.

would this online source of vit E8 complex be a possibility for you?
http://www.apotheke-internationale.co.u ... -9737.html

i only mentioned blood clotting because of the ccsvi angle.

all of these nutrients are important, in the right balance, for health. they all have myriad roles, and also happen to interact in support of proper clotting :)

i am not specifically recommending vitamin K supplementation - just pointing out that your body uses cal and k for clotting. which is definitely needed for survival, but at the same time you don't want too much calcium and vit K in your system or your blood might clot too easily.

you balance the pro-clotting nutrients out with magnesium and vitamin E and fish oil and having sufficient amounts of all those other nutrients, ones that tend to be low in ms patients.

dark leafy greens have magnesium, vitamin E and vitamin K all at once. i can only imagine they come in the right balance for proper blood clotting from sources like kale :)

ttfn!

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Postby dc10 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:11 am

i do get spasticity but only when first stanbding up and last only 3-5 seconds.
not any of the others listed though,

the spasticity is related to my CCSVI though as when i was liberated the sasticity vanished and only came back after 4-5 weeks due to restenosis.

my MS symptoms are just balance, legs strength (left weaker than right) - mobility and bladder.

All i believe cause by CCSVI and as a result Demylination

calc/mag - problem is, i have muscle weakness AND spasiocity (only when first standing) so looksl ike i have a Catch22,

Vit E - unfortunately that Vit E would be too expensive for me to take everyday,

the Vit E 1000IU i have i only take once daily so wouldn exceed this amount daily,
I also have this Vit E - <shortened url>

Would this be better to take for now?

i also take Evening Primrose Oil - 2x 1000g daily - 2 separate times of dy

Thanks Jimmylegs youre great :)!
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Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:55 pm

ok i'm going to say it's probably wise to go with more magnesium in spite of the weakness. it is probably not calcium deficiency weakness anyway.

it's one thing if you have one OR the other. but if you have spasticity AND weakness, i'm starting to think magnesium as a calcium blocker for the muscles, and magnesium to feed into Mg-ATP for energy, ergo less weakness.

yea i realize that E8 complex can be pricey... personally i wouldn't take that other vit e either.

what about chowing down on high vit e foods? can you stomach eating 1/4c raw sunflower seeds each day? they have lots of great nutrients check this out:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=57

also, try to get 1c. of boiled spinach or swiss chard as close to daily as possible.

if you bought a bottle of the expensive e8, maybe you could just keep in the fridge for days when you need a break from sunflower seeds and greens LOL :)

if you're taking fish oil i don't really think you'd need to also take evening primrose. you could cut some of your outlay on supplements that way maybe.

check this out:

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/con ... 1164.short
Effect of magnesium on restenosis after percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty: a clinical and angiographic evaluation in a randomized patient population
Abstract
Restenosis is a major clinical problem following successful percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty. Since magnesium has vasodilator and antithrombotic effects, this study was designed to evaluate its potential to decrease the rate of restenosis.
In an open-labelled, randomized controlled study, 148 patients underwent successful coronary angioplasty. Ninety-eight patients were treated with ...[IV] magnesium sulphate ... 49 of them continued with oral supplements of magnesium hydroxide 600 mg. ... 50 patients served as controls (group C).
... A trend towards a lower rate of restenosis (>50% reduction in luminal diameter) was noticed in the magnesium groups (28/110, 25%) compared with the control group (20/53, 38%) P=0.10. ...
It is concluded that intravenous administration of magnesium in patients undergoing coronary angioplasty is feasible and safe and that the beneficial trend of magnesium to prevent acute recoil and late (within 6 months) restenosis is encouraging and should promote further investigation in a larger patient population.
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Postby dc10 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:37 am

thank you JL fdor the info,
i will finish off the remaining VIT E then consider the more expensive E8.

That Magnesium comment that it helps prevent restenosis is encouraging and i dont intend to stop Magnesium.

what is the equivalent to 1c of spinach in grams?
what does the 'c' stand for?

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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:28 am

you're welcome!

oh sorry c. is for cups.

looks like the 1/4c sunflower seeds would be 36 grams.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=57

sunflower seeds indepth:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... e&dbid=127

the actual amount of vit E provided by 36 g of sunflower seeds is around 27 IU.


1c boiled spinach would be 180 grams.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=43

spinach in-depth:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... le&dbid=16

note that the amount of vit E provided by spinach is 20% of daily value.

the actual amount of vit E in a cup of boiled spinach is about 5 IU.

wheat germ is another vitamin E food option.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/38242 ... heat-germ/
"Wheat germ can be eaten raw or toasted. Try it sprinkled on cereal, yogurt, smoothies or add it to your favorite bread recipes.
Wheat germ contains 4.53 mg of vitamin E per 1 oz. serving, according to the United States Department of Agriculture's nutrient database. Wheat germ oil provides even more vitamin E per serving, with just 1 tbsp. containing 20.3 mg. One tablespoon of wheat germ oil provides more than the recommended daily allowance of 15 mg of vitamin E"

so that means wheat germ has a bit under 7 IU per 1oz (28g)

whereas it looks like each 15ml wheat germ oil has just over 30 IU vit E.

compare dietary intakes from sunflower seeds, spinach, wheat germ and wheat germ oil (25+5+7+30=67IU) , with the E8 supplement which has 400IU.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamine/
Table 3: Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (ULs) for Vitamin E
Age
19+ years
Male
1,000 mg / (1,500 IU)

i would NOT use the above ULs for any straight alpha tocopherol supplements, only E8 complex and dietary sources.

hth!
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Postby NHE » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:25 pm

jimmylegs wrote:if you're taking fish oil i don't really think you'd need to also take evening primrose. you could cut some of your outlay on supplements that way maybe.



Evening primrose oil, as well as borage seed oil, contains gamma-linlolenic acid. While this is an omega-6 fatty acid, it has been found to be anti-inflammatory. Either evening primrose oil or borage seed oil would provide a likely benefit that's not available via fish oil. Here are a couple of papers on GLA...


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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:48 pm

interestingly, i searched nutritiondata.com for highest dietary sources of gamma linolenic acid (GLA) aka 18:3 omega 6, and the highest food result is canola harvest margarine. categories with the most results are beef and pork.

Biomed Pharmacother. 2002 Oct;56(8):365-79.
The importance of the ratio of omega-6/omega-3 essential fatty acids.
Abstract
Several sources of information suggest that human beings evolved on a diet with a ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 essential fatty acids (EFA) of approximately 1 whereas in Western diets the ratio is 15/1-16.7/1. Western diets are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, and have excessive amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared with the diet on which human beings evolved and their genetic patterns were established.
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GRAPE SEED BAD! - GRAPE SKIN GOOD...

Postby jackD » Wed May 04, 2011 8:57 pm

Grape seed extract raises GAMMA INTERFERON which is VERY BAD for MS Folks.

Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2002 Mar;9(2):470-6.
Grape seed extract activates Th1 cells in vitro.
Nair N, Mahajan S, Chawda R, Kandaswami C, Shanahan TC, Schwartz SA.
SourceDivision of Allergy, Immunology, and Rheumatology, Department of Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo and Kaleida Health, 14203, USA.

Abstract
Although flavonoids manifest a diverse range of biological activities, including antitumor and antiviral effects, the molecular mechanisms underlying these activities await elucidation. We hypothesize that the flavonoid constituents of a proprietary grape seed extract (GSE) that contains procyandins exert significant antiviral and antitumor effects, by inducing production of the Th1-derived cytokine gamma interferon (IFN-gamma) by peripheral blood mononuclear cells) from healthy donors. Our results show that GSE significantly induced the transcription of IFN-gamma mRNA as demonstrated by reverse transcription-PCR but had no effect on the Th2-derived cytokine interleukin-6. The enhancing effect of GSE on IFN-gamma expression was further supported by a concomitant increase in the number of cells with intracytoplasmic IFN-gamma as well as the synthesis and secretion of IFN-gamma. Our results demonstrate that the potentially beneficial immunostimulatory effects of GSE may be mediated through the induction of IFN-gamma.

PMID: 11874895 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE


Grape skin extract is GREAT for MS folks mainly because it lower MMP-9s which tend to make holes in BBB Blood Brain Barrier and enters brain and cut up Myelin.

http://home.ix.netcom.com/~jdalton/Yongrev.pdf

(see figure 2 and narrative on page 505)


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