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Re: Study questions Vit D intake

Postby NHE » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:29 pm

gwa wrote:I assume that you posted the wrong link. If not, what does the link have to do with Vit D?

I'm not sure what happened though the link is fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 pm

i've been up on the calcium part of this, but have had trouble coming up with the magnesium numbers.

if you did not already know the following, we have Nick to thank - I had been rummaging around unsuccessfully. Nick answered my PM right away and mentioned "embry", which i added to my search terms and found this:

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=show&pageid=39
It is essential that, while supplementing with vitamin D3(cholecalciferol), you also supplement with 1200mg essential calcium and 600-1200mg magnesium, to prevent osteoporosis.


when i have more time i will look into that statement and try to discover the sources.
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Postby dignan » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:59 pm

ooo ooo ooo, I have a question, I have a question...Direct-MS's vitamin D clinical trial includes 1,200mg of calcium in the trial protocol, but not magnesium and zinc. Why would they do that? Wouldn't this lead to trial participants become magnesium and zinc deficient?

http://www.direct-ms.org/plannedresearch.html
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:35 pm

lol! man, don't burst my bubble by bringing up zinc, that's the next step i have to work on.

all i can tell you is that during my as yet unpublished trial of n=1 D3-supplemented participants over approx 2 years, that 100% of study participants ended up both magnesium and zinc deficient.

as for why direct ms would do that, they were probably just looking at preventing hypercalcemia in d supplementation. maybe the next installments will examine hypomagnesiwhatever and hypozinneablah

who wants to apply for a research grant with me, we can monitor all those minerals under a high dose D3 regimen and publish. surely we have enough people around here with some medical qualifications :D
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:39 pm

and just since you brought up zinc, i came across ties between zinc deficiency and intestinal permeability the other day... things that make ya go hmmmm
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

pursuing permeability and zinc further, i considered the bbb and found this

English Title: Zinc deficiency and oxidative stress in brain: magnetic resonance investigations in weanling rats.
Personal Authors: Towner, R. A., Appleby, C., Levy, M., Bray, T. M.
Author Affiliation: Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation, Free Radical Biology & Aging Research Program, 825 N.E. 13th St., Oklahoma City, OK 73104, USA.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Journal of Trace Elements in Experimental Medicine, 2004 (Vol. 17) (No. 3) 161-174

Abstract:
In humans, zinc deficiency is characterized by a broad spectrum of neurological clinical syndromes. It is known that vesicular zinc-enriched areas of the brain, such as the hippocampus, are responsive to zinc deprivation, which may result in learning impairment. Recent findings show that zinc deficiency may cause alterations in neurochemical activity. In this study we used contrast-enhanced magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to monitor disruptions to the blood-brain barrier (BBB) and image-guided MR spectroscopy to follow alterations in brain metabolites as a result of zinc-deficiency and/or hyperoxia-induced oxidative stress. Gadolinium-diethylaminetriaminopentaacetic acid, an extracellular T1 relaxation contrast agent, increases tissue water signal in the brain if the BBB is damaged. A significant increase in postcontrast T1-weighted MR image intensity was observed in the brain of zinc-deficient or hyperoxia-exposed rats, as well as zinc-deficient rats exposed only to hyperoxia when compared with zinc-adequate rats. From single-voxel image-guided MR spectroscopy results, significant decreases in the ratio of N-acetyl aspartate, a neuronal-specific compound, to total choline levels were found when comparing controls (zinc-adequate or zinc pair-fed) with zinc-deficiency or hyperoxia groups alone, and when zinc-deficiency was combined with hyperoxia. This study demonstrates the sensitivity of MR techniques in the ability to monitor the effect of zinc deficiency combined with oxidative stress on BBB permeability as well as detect alterations in brain metabolites. This will further aid in our understanding of the possible cellular and molecular mechanisms involved in zinc deficiency pathology associated with the brain.
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Postby dignan » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:28 pm

"hypozinneablah"...one of my uncles had that...not pretty...

Direct-MS does include zinc and magnesium supplements as part of their best bet diet for which they are also doing a clinical trial. As you said, maybe they want to just be more specific to vit D in the other trial. Why muddy the waters?
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:31 am

exactly. keep it simple, or maybe they would have liked to supplement all three, monitor intakes of all three, and measure patients' levels of all three, but there wasn't enough funding.
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Postby Frank » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:56 am

I called my pharmacist today and asked for his opinion about the need to supplement calcium when taking vit D3.

He told me that these two substances are often given together because calcium uses vit D3 to be stored into the bones. That is important for ostheoporosis patients, because they would get vit D3 deficient if they where not supplementing it.

But the other way round there would be no need to supplement calcium when taking larger amounts of vit D3 (in my case 2000 i.u.), because the vit D3 metabolism works independent from calcium.

Is there a scientific source that researched the need of calcium when supplementing vit D3.

Thanks

--Frank
Treatment: Gilenya since 01/2011, CCSVI both IJV ballooned 09/2010, Tysabri stopped after 24 Infusions and positive JCV antibody test, after LDN, ABX Wheldon Regime for 1 year.
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:54 am

short answer, yes. long answer:

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/2004/04_04/inzucchi.htm
The average adult human body contains about 1 kg of calcium, 99% of which resides in the skeleton in the form of hydroxyapatite and 1% of which is found in soft tissues and the extracellular space. Since calcium plays a critical role in neuromuscular function, blood coagulation, and intracellular signaling, circulating calcium concentrations are maintained within a very tight physiologic range (about 9 to 10 mg/dL [2.25 to 2.5 mmol/L]).


Ionized calcium concentration is closely regulated by two separate but related hormone systems: parathyroid hormone (PTH) and 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol (1,25(OH)2D3), or calcitriol.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/1117r60lk7010l23/
These data suggest that 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol is able to increase bone resorption independently of parathyroid hormone


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_resorption
Bone resorption is the process by which osteoclasts break down bone and release the minerals, resulting in a transfer of calcium from bone fluid to the blood.


so, you take vitamin d3 at high levels, and it releases more calcium from your skeleton. unless it already has some handy in the blood because you supplemented.
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Postby CureOrBust » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:06 am

jimmylegs wrote:so, you take vitamin d3 at high levels, and it releases more calcium from your skeleton. unless it already has some handy in the blood because you supplemented.
So those Indian outdoor workers with ludicrously high circulating D3 would be facing a high incidence of osteoporosis?
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:24 am

it depends on the vitamin D3 assay used, whether the levels are in fact ludicrous, on simultaneous levels of pth and plasma calcium. and other as yet understudied factors such as other minerals.

looks like there's some interesting followup debate to the following abstract which you could have a peek through. i can't spend the time on the debate myself right now :)

Natl Med J India. 2003 Nov-Dec;16(6):298-302.
Comment in:
Natl Med J India. 2003 Nov-Dec;16(6):294-7.
Natl Med J India. 2004 Jan-Feb;17(1):55-6.
Natl Med J India. 2004 Mar-Apr;17(2):114; author reply 114-5.
Bone mineral parameters in healthy young Indian adults with optimal vitamin D availability.

BACKGROUND: Several recent studies indicate a marked prevalence of vitamin D deficiency in asymptomatic, apparently healthy urban subjects from different socioeconomic groups in north India. METHODS: To further examine this trend, we studied 40 men and 50 women, 20-30 years of age, from the Indian paramilitary forces. These individuals consume a nutritious, high-protein diet, have optimal exposure to sunlight and undertake strenuous outdoor physical exercise. RESULTS: The mean serum calcium, phosphorus and alkaline phosphatase levels were normal in both men and women. The mean (SD) serum intact parathyroid hormone and 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 levels were 19.3 (8.2) pg/ml and 18.4 (5.3) ng/ml in men, and 11.9 (6.6) pg/ml and 25.3 (7.4) ng/ml in women. Bone mineral density estimated in 20 men and 22 women revealed that in comparison with white Caucasians, 35%-50% of men and 14%-32% of women were osteopenic at different sites, while an additional 10% of men had osteoporosis of the lumbar spine. CONCLUSION: We found that with optimal nutrition, good sunlight exposure and regular physical exercise, healthy young individuals have normal bone and mineral biochemical values. The reasons for the abnormalities detected in bone mineral density in them needs further study. The impact of childhood nutrition on accumulation of peak bone mass may contribute to our findings. There is a need for establishing normative bone mineral density data for Indians.
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Vit D and diabetes

Postby bromley » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:01 am

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new vitamin D info

Postby Loriyas » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:15 am

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Postby TwistedHelix » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:39 am

That's very interesting, Loryas, and if people aren't convinced by that article here's something I just picked up on PubMed:


Use of vitamin D in clinical practice.

Cannell JJ, Hollis BW.

Director, Vitamin D Council. Correspondence address: 9100 San Gregorio Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 Email: jjcannell@gmail.com.

The recent discovery - from a meta-analysis of 18 randomized controlled trials - that supplemental cholecalciferol (vitamin D) significantly reduces all-cause mortality emphasizes the medical, ethical, and legal implications of promptly diagnosing and adequately treating vitamin D deficiency. Not only are such deficiencies common, and probably the rule, vitamin D deficiency is implicated in most of the diseases of civilization. Vitamin D's final metabolic product is a potent, pleiotropic, repair and maintenance, seco-steroid hormone that targets more than 200 human genes in a wide variety of tissues, meaning it has as many mechanisms of action as genes it targets. One of the most important genes vitamin D up-regulates is for cathelicidin, a naturally occurring broad-spectrum antibiotic. Natural vitamin D levels, those found in humans living in a sun-rich environment, are between 40-70 ng per ml, levels obtained by few modern humans. Assessing serum 25-hydroxy-vitamin D (25(OH)D) is the only way to make the diagnosis and to assure treatment is adequate and safe. Three treatment modalities exist for vitamin D deficiency: sunlight, artificial ultraviolet B (UVB) radiation, and vitamin D3 supplementation. Treatment of vitamin D deficiency in otherwise healthy patients with 2,000-7,000 IU vitamin D per day should be sufficient to maintain year-round 25(OH)D levels between 40-70 ng per mL. In those with serious illnesses associated with vitamin D deficiency, such as cancer, heart disease, multiple sclerosis, diabetes, autism, and a host of other illnesses, doses should be sufficient to maintain year-round 25(OH)D levels between 55 -70 ng per mL. Vitamin D-deficient patients with serious illness should not only be supplemented more aggressively than the well, they should have more frequent monitoring of serum 25(OH)D and serum calcium. Vitamin D should always be adjuvant treatment in patients with serious illnesses and never replace standard treatment. Theoretically, pharmacological doses of vitamin D (2,000 IU per kg per day for three days) may produce enough of the naturally occurring antibiotic cathelicidin to cure common viral respiratory infections, such as influenza and the common cold, but such a theory awaits further science.

PMID: 18377099 [PubMed - in process]
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