all things vitamin D

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Re: Prospects for Vitamin D Nutrition

Postby NHE » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:13 am

Brownsfan wrote:Would a daily dose of 3000 - 4000 IU Vit D3 be 100% safe or do I need to be diligent about getting blood tests for toxicity?

The Mayo Clinic has some info on vitamin D. They suggest that doses higher than 2000 IU/day be avoided due to toxicity problems. They also state that blood levels of 25(OH)D3 levels may be significantly elevated, although 1,25(OH)2D3 levels may be normal. Thus, hypercalcemia really needs to be addressed as well.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... t-vitamind

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Not sure if it's related

Postby Brownsfan » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:57 am

In addition to my recent diagnosis of MS I have also had psoriasis since my teens (I am 33 now). I've been supplementing with 2000-4000 IU D3 for about 2.5 months and my skin is 99% clear of any psoriasis rash (for the first winter in 20 years). I don't know if it's related to the D3, but some of the medicines typically prescribed for psoriasis are Vit D derivatives.
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Postby Melody » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:07 pm

Johns eczema went away this year and he had it all his life year round. It was just prior to starting D3. We put it down to either flax or turmeric. It still has not come back. I was just looking over my notes and noticed I'd written in Aug 2005 that John was no longer mumbling when tired. That has also not started up again at this time. Two weeks ago when he had a cold I'd noted he was napping once again in the afternoon as well as suffering some fogging in his good eye when tired. I started him on Glucosamine and unsure if it had an effect but within 5 days he was 100% again other than the lingering ON since 1998. It was a few scary days though as we thought maybe we were looking at a relapse.
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Postby Brownsfan » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:38 pm

Interesting, I too have been taking a full tablespoon of flax oil each AM for the past few months. Who knows if it's the flax, LDN, or Vit D but something is working. Psoriasis/eczema are also considered autoimmune or inflammatory diseases....not sure if there's any connection to MS but I did read that MS patients suffer disproportionately from psoriasis/eczema.
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Vit D

Postby bromley » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:28 pm

I live in London UK and finally found somewhere to buy curcumin (I'm having it sent over from the US).

Next on my list is Vitamin D, but I'm confused (not the MS). There seems to be different types and I'm not sure which is the right one. Vit D3 often is mentioned and also IU 1000???

If we are more susceptible to MS because of a lack of Vitamin D - any suggestions on what I should be taking, how many / much a day, and where I can get it from.

[I'm not after medical advice etc and promise not to sue etc]

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks

Ian

PS I've upped my oily fish intake but assume supplements are required.
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Postby Brownsfan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:50 pm

Based on the reading I did on Ashton Embry's website http://www.direct-ms.org/, I have been taking 2000 - 4000 IU Vitamin D3 (not associated with cod liver oil or vitamin A). I get mine from a local vitamin shop here in the states but it's widely avail via internet or mail order. I also have an appt. next week to check my circulating Vit D levels to make sure I'm in a safe range.
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Postby Jaded » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:49 pm

Ian

I have been taking Vit D by Source Naturels, purchased from iherb.com.

I was (and still am) confused about the D3 element but the supplement facts on the tub detail it as "Vitamin D-3 (as cholcalciferol)".

Each tab is 1,000 IU, and I take 4 each day. Without checking (Sarah will correct me if I am wrong, I hope) I think that dosage is part of the Wheldon protocol, and fits in with the dosage that Brownsfan has quoted from Direct-MS.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Vit D

Postby CureOrBust » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:55 pm

bromley wrote:Next on my list is Vitamin D, ... There seems to be different types and I'm not sure which is the right one. Vit D3 often is mentioned and also IU 1000???

As far as I understand, the "IU" is not a type of Vitamin, but a measurement of the amount. I think it stands for "International Units" or something along those lines.

One thing to watch out for is that some Vitamin D suppliments are in the form of D2 which is a man made / synthetic; from which i have read is not absorbed or utilised as easily by the body.
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Postby Jaded » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:14 pm

Oh yes - forgot to mention the units. CureO is right of course.

Patrick Holford's Optimum Nutrition Bible gives the following guide to measurements:

100 IU of vitamin D=2.5mcg (micrograms)

So 1000 IU = 0.025mg (making 4000 0.1mg).

The scales are different for other vitamins by the way. Very strange, I think. Holford says IU's are an old measurement unit.

I hope I did the maths right!

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Postby LisaBee » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:49 pm

Ian,

I'm no expert, but I had a nutritionist recommend to me to "walk up" the vitamin D dose to the target dose over a period of several weeks. I am guessing this allows the parathyroid hormone levels to readjust to avoid a potential for hypercalcemia. There is this interplay between parathyroid hormones and vitamin D levels. I saw in the MS abstract where vitamin D caused a transient hypercalcemia in some of the subjects and they had to adjust the dose. It seems to make sense, since sunlight is the major source of Vitamin D, and if we were all still hunter-gatherers in northern latitudes, we would come out of winter and get a gradual increasing sunlight exposure over spring into summer - we wouldn't go from deep dark of winter to blazing midsummer levels of UVB radiation in less than a week. People in the tropics with year-round sun exposure and higher Vitamin D levels are already acclimated to a high D level. This is just an idea though, and I haven't found any studies on gradually increasing the dose.

If you haven't been taking vitamin D in a supplement, and if you are targeting as high as 4000 IU as a daily dose you may want to walk up the dose a few hundred IU each week to reach the target. Just an idea.

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Re: Vit D

Postby NHE » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:31 am

Bromley wrote:If we are more susceptible to MS because of a lack of Vitamin D - any suggestions on what I should be taking, how many / much a day, and where I can get it from.

Here's one perspective on vitamin D. The Mayo Clinic suggest that doses higher than 2000 IU/day be avoided due to toxicity problems. They also state that blood levels of 25(OH)D3 levels may be significantly elevated, although 1,25(OH)2D3 levels may be normal. Thus, hypercalcemia really needs to be addressed as well.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitami ... t-vitamind

This paper recommends 1000 IU/day for sunlight deprived individuals.

Overall, it's kind of confusing right now since there are so many different "recommended" dosages. I tend to think that it's best to err on the side of caution when beginning a new regimen or modifying a current one. Here in the US, the RDA for vitamin D is 400 IU and many multivitamins contain this amount. Starting out with 400 IU should be safe. As Melody suggested, increasing the dosage should probably be done after a period of time to allow the body to become adjusted. However, to what level it should be increased to is likely still up for debate (I certainly don't have the answer).

Jaded wrote:The scales are different for other vitamins by the way. Very strange, I think. Holford says IU's are an old measurement unit.

To the best of my recollection, IUs are a measure of the specific activity of the stuff that's being analyzed. Each vitamin (or enzyme or whatever) will likely have a different assay that's performed in order to determine its specific activity. When a substance is listed as x amount of IUs, then you have to know which assay was performed in order to determine the value. Sometimes, the type of assay performed is a standard to the substance being tested and the numbers should be comparable between different sources. However, having worked in a lab and having dealt with chemical supply companies, I know that there are many cases were only "units" are assigned to a substance (particularly with enzymes) and these are often not comparable as the assays differ between various suppliers. Yes, it's about this time that one becomes prone to developing headaches.

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Postby JFH » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:40 am

Holland & Barrett (leading UK High St Health Store) sell 100 x 10mcg (400IU 200% RDA UK) tablets for £2.99. Dont know if it is D2 (synthetic) or not.

I moved to 40mcg dx from 20mcg dx at beginning of Nov and insist my daughters take 10mcg dx.

:lol: You could always sunbathe 8) - Jelinek suggests about 15mins a day 3 times a week in UV strength 7, and supplement only when its dull or your busy.

HTH
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Postby dignan » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:00 am

I'm no expert on this, but I have one comment. In terms of dosage, the tolerable upper intake level is 2000iu in North America and the EU (don't know about the rest of the world). That level is based on the authorities agreeing that it is safe. In the EU's study to determine that level, I think they looked at every study done on vit D consumption and found that there were a very small number of subjects in one study who experienced toxicity at 4000iu, so they made their upper level half of that, just to be safe. I think the Direct-MS folks take issue with some of the studies used to arrive at 2000iu, but I'm not educated enough to comment.

Anyway, I feel completely safe taking 2000iu myself.
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Postby Jaded » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:03 pm

Thanks to you all for your comments on dosage.

I'll start with the facts - I am no expert either!

So I rely on the facts from experts. Patrick Holfold - who I respect as a nutritionist, quotes in his Bible that, as Lisa said, vitamin D is the most likely to give toxic reactions. He says it encourages calcium absorption and can lead to calcification of soft tissue. He does add that levels likely to create this are in excess of 3,000mcg, and more like 15,000mcg. He says a daily intake of should not exceed 6,600mcg for adults and 330mcg for children.


This does not compare with the 100mcg = 4000 IU I am taking!!

However, I will double check this - and probably see a nutritionist, since I am aware it may not be a simple as a book reads. The last time I was tested - about 6 months ago - my B12 and Vitamin D levels were extremely low.

Thanks :)
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Postby SarahLonglands » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:22 pm

Jaded, 4000iu is perfectly fine. I have been taking it daily for getting on for two and a half years now with absolutely no ill effects. Having said that, many people would say it is way too much. Not so, since if you live in Sub Saharan Africa you can easily take in 7000iu just by walking down the High Street.....Sarah
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