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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:57 am 
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and i have not seen any research to my recollection that talks about vitamin d reversing nerve damage, just that it affects the immune system and has been shown to reduce relapse frequency. i don't have time to go back over the literature but i don't imagine the assessment methodology is much different from tests on pharmaceuticals and relapse rates. i'm still quite happy to aim for a serum level of 150 and i know my tendency is more in the 70s, even when supplementing. i have to supplement a HUGE amount to get up to 150 and have never felt any ill effects.
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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:01 am 
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and by ill effects i mean in the short term. as previously mentioned, i am suspicious that some of my more recent issues were resolved with magnesium pills, after long term (almost 2 years) supplementation with thousands of units of d per day, including the initial booster of 50,000 per day for 10 days.
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NHE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:45 am 
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I recently posted on this topic in another thread. It might be relevant to the present discussion.

NHE


Last edited by NHE on Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gwa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:12 am 
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NHE,

I assume that you posted the wrong link. If not, what does the link have to do with Vit D?

gwa :?: :?:
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Anecdote
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:21 am 
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Maybe NHE has been highjacked since this thread which was supposed to recently posted is dated only today.

Apart from this, "Dr. Marshall", who has a doctorate in chemical engineering, from before he moved to California and cured himself from sarcoidosis, should bear in mind that in the nineteenth century, some children used to suffer greatly from rickets, now unknown in the civilised world. This was caused by never seeing daylight, never mind sunlight, from one year to the next. They were the mill workers and young lads sent up chimneys and down the mines. They suffered from a severe vitamin D deficiency for this reason.

Also, before the introduction of the first antibiotics, people with TB who were sent to the big TB sanatoriua, were wheeled out of doors in rthe summer and left in the sun. Many of them were cured from the disease.

This is a good link:
http://www.canceractive.com/page.php?n=344#8

Sarah

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An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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cheerleader
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:33 am 
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Terrific link, Sarah...
interesting to read that vitamin D acts more like a hormone, and its synergy with vit. A and E.

The only time my sunny Californian husband's vitamin D levels were compromised was at the time of his MS diagnosis last year. He was very sick.... jaundiced, numb, toxic and had very high liver enzymes. Since we've healed his gastric and liver issues, he is absorbing and utilizing vitamins again, as shown by recent serum level testing. I think toxic overload and bacteria were hampering his absorption. Haven't had mineral levels tested, Jimmylegs.


From Sarah's link-

Sunlight on our skin is now thought to be the main 'source' of vitamin D. Whilst a little is found in dairy, the major source is fish liver oils and particularly cod liver oil. Plants contain very little vitamin D. Kidney or liver disease (and alcohol) depress vitamin D levels, as do cholesterol-lowering drugs (e.g. statins), mineral oils, anticonvulsants and toxic chemicals in the environment (e.g. smog). Cadmium blocks vitamin D production whilst pantothenic acid helps make it. Night shift workers have lowered blood levels of vitamin D. Heavily tanned, or black people cannot make vitamin D through the process of sunlight in their skin.

interesting,
AC
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NHE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:29 pm 
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gwa wrote:
I assume that you posted the wrong link. If not, what does the link have to do with Vit D?

I'm not sure what happened though the link is fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out.

NHE
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jimmylegs
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 pm 
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i've been up on the calcium part of this, but have had trouble coming up with the magnesium numbers.

if you did not already know the following, we have Nick to thank - I had been rummaging around unsuccessfully. Nick answered my PM right away and mentioned "embry", which i added to my search terms and found this:

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=show&pageid=39
Quote:
It is essential that, while supplementing with vitamin D3(cholecalciferol), you also supplement with 1200mg essential calcium and 600-1200mg magnesium, to prevent osteoporosis.


when i have more time i will look into that statement and try to discover the sources.
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dignan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:59 pm 
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ooo ooo ooo, I have a question, I have a question...Direct-MS's vitamin D clinical trial includes 1,200mg of calcium in the trial protocol, but not magnesium and zinc. Why would they do that? Wouldn't this lead to trial participants become magnesium and zinc deficient?

http://www.direct-ms.org/plannedresearch.html
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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:35 pm 
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lol! man, don't burst my bubble by bringing up zinc, that's the next step i have to work on.

all i can tell you is that during my as yet unpublished trial of n=1 D3-supplemented participants over approx 2 years, that 100% of study participants ended up both magnesium and zinc deficient.

as for why direct ms would do that, they were probably just looking at preventing hypercalcemia in d supplementation. maybe the next installments will examine hypomagnesiwhatever and hypozinneablah

who wants to apply for a research grant with me, we can monitor all those minerals under a high dose D3 regimen and publish. surely we have enough people around here with some medical qualifications :D
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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:39 pm 
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and just since you brought up zinc, i came across ties between zinc deficiency and intestinal permeability the other day... things that make ya go hmmmm
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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm 
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pursuing permeability and zinc further, i considered the bbb and found this

Quote:
English Title: Zinc deficiency and oxidative stress in brain: magnetic resonance investigations in weanling rats.
Personal Authors: Towner, R. A., Appleby, C., Levy, M., Bray, T. M.
Author Affiliation: Oklahoma Medical Research Foundation, Free Radical Biology & Aging Research Program, 825 N.E. 13th St., Oklahoma City, OK 73104, USA.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Journal of Trace Elements in Experimental Medicine, 2004 (Vol. 17) (No. 3) 161-174

Abstract:
In humans, zinc deficiency is characterized by a broad spectrum of neurological clinical syndromes. It is known that vesicular zinc-enriched areas of the brain, such as the hippocampus, are responsive to zinc deprivation, which may result in learning impairment. Recent findings show that zinc deficiency may cause alterations in neurochemical activity. In this study we used contrast-enhanced magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to monitor disruptions to the blood-brain barrier (BBB) and image-guided MR spectroscopy to follow alterations in brain metabolites as a result of zinc-deficiency and/or hyperoxia-induced oxidative stress. Gadolinium-diethylaminetriaminopentaacetic acid, an extracellular T1 relaxation contrast agent, increases tissue water signal in the brain if the BBB is damaged. A significant increase in postcontrast T1-weighted MR image intensity was observed in the brain of zinc-deficient or hyperoxia-exposed rats, as well as zinc-deficient rats exposed only to hyperoxia when compared with zinc-adequate rats. From single-voxel image-guided MR spectroscopy results, significant decreases in the ratio of N-acetyl aspartate, a neuronal-specific compound, to total choline levels were found when comparing controls (zinc-adequate or zinc pair-fed) with zinc-deficiency or hyperoxia groups alone, and when zinc-deficiency was combined with hyperoxia. This study demonstrates the sensitivity of MR techniques in the ability to monitor the effect of zinc deficiency combined with oxidative stress on BBB permeability as well as detect alterations in brain metabolites. This will further aid in our understanding of the possible cellular and molecular mechanisms involved in zinc deficiency pathology associated with the brain.
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dignan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:28 pm 
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"hypozinneablah"...one of my uncles had that...not pretty...

Direct-MS does include zinc and magnesium supplements as part of their best bet diet for which they are also doing a clinical trial. As you said, maybe they want to just be more specific to vit D in the other trial. Why muddy the waters?
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jimmylegs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:31 am 
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exactly. keep it simple, or maybe they would have liked to supplement all three, monitor intakes of all three, and measure patients' levels of all three, but there wasn't enough funding.
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Frank
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:56 am 
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I called my pharmacist today and asked for his opinion about the need to supplement calcium when taking vit D3.

He told me that these two substances are often given together because calcium uses vit D3 to be stored into the bones. That is important for ostheoporosis patients, because they would get vit D3 deficient if they where not supplementing it.

But the other way round there would be no need to supplement calcium when taking larger amounts of vit D3 (in my case 2000 i.u.), because the vit D3 metabolism works independent from calcium.

Is there a scientific source that researched the need of calcium when supplementing vit D3.

Thanks

--Frank

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