all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby Nick » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:33 pm

MattB wrote:Speaking only from personal experience I don't think MS is caused by a vitamin D deficit--or at the very least it's only one of many different possible causes. I grew up drinking lots of milk which, at least in the US, has a reasonable amount of Vit D added PLUS I spent almost all of my time outside yet I still have MS. I honestly feel that I grew up in a very nutritionally and physically desirable environment. The only thing that made my childhood rough was multiple family members whom I was very close to passing away over the span of 3 years, I know I'm still emotionally scarred from that.

I'm more of the school that it's either a genetic defect of some kind, set off by a virus/bacteria, or exposure to some type of chemical or microbial. Just my two cents if it's even worth that much.


I don't think it is as simple as that Matt.

For the mostpart, MS = genetic susceptibility+causal factors+deficiency in protective factors. Milk proteins have been shown to be causal, the vitamin D content of milk is much too low to be immunoregulatory and many parts of the US have lengthy vitamin D winters.

A viral and or bacterial trigger is plausible to initiate the disease process but MS is characterised by repeated immune actions against self over prolong periods. Chronic antigen exposure from a viral/bacterial presence over decades is difficult to justify for the majority of people with MS whereas dietary proteins can easily fit this motif.

Cheers
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Postby DIM » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:21 am

I don't think 20 minutes sunshine per day at the noon can cause you any cancer at all, probably they protect you from it!
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Valuable contribution

Postby lyndacarol » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:43 am

MattB--I found your contribution much more valuable than two cents!
Speaking only from personal experience I don't think MS is caused by a vitamin D deficit
This is my opinion too after a childhood in the sun, excellent diet (but with TOO many carbohydrates), recently taking 8000IU daily for a year and a half and seeing no change in condition (followed by a year of 6000IU daily for a year).

This site works best if members feel free to offer ideas in a welcoming atmosphere--no matter how unconventional (as the insulin hypothesis). Did I ever tell you my other theory--that MS is caused by wearing blue jeans?
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Re: Valuable contribution

Postby gwa » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:34 am

lyndacarol wrote:MattB--I found your contribution much more valuable than two cents!
Speaking only from personal experience I don't think MS is caused by a vitamin D deficit
This is my opinion too after a childhood in the sun, excellent diet (but with TOO many carbohydrates), recently taking 8000IU daily for a year and a half and seeing no change in condition (followed by a year of 6000IU daily for a year).

This site works best if members feel free to offer ideas in a welcoming atmosphere--no matter how unconventional (as the insulin hypothesis). Did I ever tell you my other theory--that MS is caused by wearing blue jeans?


I also question this theory because there are millions of Muslim men and women who have had their bodies covered from the sun since birth and to my knowledge Muslims are not topping the list of MS patients.

I seriously doubt if they have taken Vit D capsules since birth either.

One thing to remember is that the Vitamin D theory is just that, a theory. It has not been proven, just conjectured.

gwa
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:01 am

remember folks we are not talking about the be all and end all decisive cause of MS with vitamin D3 status.
a combination of different factors are likely involved, and different patients' ms may be a series of different subgroups once we get it all figured out.
matt have you had your d3 level tested? i would have said mine was fine too, before the bloodwork. not so much, in hindsight.
as far as human populations and ms risk, suboptimal vitamin d3 status and ms are certainly linked, and dark skin plus covered skin are at increased risk of d3 deficiency. but still it's only one piece of a complex puzzle.
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Re: Valuable contribution

Postby MattB » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:30 pm

lyndacarol wrote:MattB--I found your contribution much more valuable than two cents!

This is my opinion too after a childhood in the sun, excellent diet (but with TOO many carbohydrates), recently taking 8000IU daily for a year and a half and seeing no change in condition (followed by a year of 6000IU daily for a year).

This site works best if members feel free to offer ideas in a welcoming atmosphere--no matter how unconventional (as the insulin hypothesis). Did I ever tell you my other theory--that MS is caused by wearing blue jeans?


First off, thanks!

I lived in east-central Pennsylvania where it was only winter for 3 months basically and I spent all my summers outside playing. In addition to the milk drinking I had plenty of tuna, salmon, and eggs.

jimmylegs, no I've still not been back to the neuro to ask for the orders for the bloodtest. Guess I could call if I really wanted to.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:00 am

Just to pick up this thread again...
I had posted about the relevance of this and my little son, now 8 months old.
I found the following authoritative advice and have double checked this:
http://www.fsai.ie/news/press/pr_07/pr20070516.asp

I am giving my son the RDA of Vitamin D on the advice of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, a government agency. I have also scheduled a vitamin d test for him with his GP so we can see if he is deficient and I am going back to my GP next week for my repeat test too.

Although, like previous posters, I don't think vit D deficiency is the sole cause I know that personally I had a relapse that made me hit EDSS 9 the first summer I worked indoors. Previous to that I had be an outdoor worker and had winter and summer sun exposure. First office job and I developed MS...or at least it flared up severely after 8 months indoors.
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Phase I/II Vitamin D Data

Postby Cyclops » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:26 am

From the ECTRIMS website:

Cyclops

A Phase I/II dose-escalation trial of oral vitamin D3 with calcium supplementation in patients with multiple sclerosis
J. M. Burton1; S. Kimball2; R. Vieth2; A. Bar-Or3; H. Dosch4; L. Thibault5; S. Kilborn5; C. D'Souza6; R. Cheung4; M. Ursell7; P. O'Connor1
1. St. Michael's Hospital, Toronto, ON, Canada.
2. Mount Sinai Hospital, Toronto, ON, Canada.
3. Montreal Neurological Institute, Montreal, QC, Canada.
4. Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, ON, Canada.
5. McGill University, Montreal, QC, Canada.
6. University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada.
7. Etobicoke General Hospital, Etobicoke, ON, Canada.



Increasing distance from the equator, low UV radiation and low serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] are associated with increased multiple sclerosis (MS) prevalence and risk. While this relationship provides insight into prevention, it begs the question, ‘Is vitamin D3 (VD3), known to have immunoregulatory properties, beneficial in established MS?’ To answer this, a safe, effective dose must be determined.

To characterize the safety profile of high-dose oral VD3 in MS.

A prospective controlled 52-week trial matched MS patients for demographic and disease characteristics, randomizing them to treatment or control groups. Treatment patients started VD3 at 4000 IU/day and escalated over 28 weeks to 40 000 IU/day. This was followed by maintenance with 10 000 IU/day for 12 weeks, 4000 IU/day for 8 weeks and a 4-week wash-out, translating into roughly 14 000 IU/day over 52 weeks. Calcium (1200mg/day) was given throughout the trial. The primary endpoint was mean change in serum calcium in treatment patients at each VD3 dose, and a comparison of calcium between treatment and control groups. Secondary endpoints included 25(OH)D, urine calcium/creatinine (Ca/Cr) and PTH. Cytokines, lymphocyte response and matrix metalloproteinase-9 were also measured, as were Expanded Disability Status Scale (EDSS) and relapses.

Forty-nine patients were enrolled (25 treatment, 24 control) with mean age 40.5 years (21–54 years), EDSS 1.34 (0-6.0) and 25(OH)D 78nmol/l (38–154). No abnormalities or differences in serum calcium, urine Ca/Cr or PTH occurred, nor were there differences in calcium between groups. Despite a maximum mean 25(OH)D of 413nmol/l (66–729), no significant clinical or biochemical adverse events occurred. A greater proportion of treatment patients had stable/improved EDSS vs. control patients (p=0.018). Treatment patients also had fewer relapses and a greater reduction in relapse rate vs. controls. Immunological data will be presented.

High-dose VD3 (~10 000 IU/day, possibly higher) in MS is safe and tolerable, with evidence of clinical improvement.
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Re: Vitamin D News

Postby cheerleader » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:18 am

Edit...
just reread the thread and noticed NHE posted the article last June. There's been alot of press on vit. D in the past few months-


"Exactly how low vitamin D levels might contribute to heart problems and deaths from other illnesses is uncertain, although it is has been shown to help regulate the body's disease-fighting immune system, he said."

Thanks for the links guys. That quote from the article is interesting. We DO have research linking vitamin D to endothelial dysfunction.

Many doctors now understand that vitamin D deficiency leads to oxidative stress, artherosclerosis, and heart disease. Vitamin D supplementation improves lipid peroxidation and heals the endothelium.
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0 ... 14p275.htm
http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/cont ... 116.2008v1

This is no longer a mystery...the endothelium connects every system in the body, from vasculature to the blood brain barrier. And vitamin D supplementation can help heal breeches in this system. The institute's daily rec. is WAY too low...we're doing 4,000IU daily, and the ECTRIM study shows 10,000IU is safely tolerated.
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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What about calcium with Vit D?

Postby Wonderfulworld » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:57 pm

Hi
I am taking 1600 IU Vit D supplement per day. Does anyone know what's the take on calcium?
I do eat quite a lot of dairy now that I'm off Best Bet, and my multi-vit has about 20% RDA calcium.
Does anyone know if there is any potential problems from not taking calcium with Vit D, or is it ok?
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Postby notasperfectasyou » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:45 pm

In our study, calcium supplementation was associated with reduced 1,25-(OH)2 vitamin D levels, presumably because the high calcium intake suppressed 1-hydroxylase activity in the kidney, inhibiting the formation of 1,25-(OH)2 vitamin D (46). The decrease in 25-(OH) vitamin D levels in both study groups may well have been a consequence of the reduced intake of dairy products, the main source of dietary vitamin D, during the trial.


This was the best I could do on the fly. You might want to read this carefully as I really didn't understand the main ideas. It's called: Vitamin D, Calcium Supplementation, and Colorectal Adenomas: Results of a Randomized Trial

can you make sense of this?

Ken
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:10 pm

take your d3 with 1200mg per day calcium. you need 600-1200mg per day magnesium with that also. and some zinc. you can take the d3 and the calcium at the same time. you need to split up the mag dosage. take some with the d3 and some away.

i think you can screw up your bones if you take d3 without calcium and magnesium. it needs it for the internal biochem. if you take it and don't provide cal and mag, it will leach it from your tissue, meaning your bones. i don't think it was a coincidence that after i started megadosing D3 and didn't get enough minerals, the next time i was at the dentist, i hear about bone loss in my jaw.

i can't spend the time looking up the journal refs to go with this but a search of pubmed or the forums here should turn up some good reading. just search for vitamin D, d3, anything like that
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Postby patientx » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:04 pm

This is interesting. I was doing some searches today on Vitamin D, and I came across this article

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abs ... 29/11/1966[url]

(I know, it's everyone's favorite mouse model, but still...)

I haven't read through the article yet, but it seems relevant to the topic.

I found this while I was searching for information on the 1,25 vitamin D versus the 25 OH form. When I was first being worked up, I had blood tests that showed I was low for the 25 OH form, and high for the 1,25 form. I am trying to figure out what this means. [/url]
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VIT D vs A

Postby Cojack » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:51 pm

FYI,

Dr Cannell from The Vitamin D Council recently sent a newsletter
cautioning the use of 'cod liver oil' -- specifically the vitamin A
aspect.

Here's the link if you are interested:

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newslett ... mber.shtml

This is fairly interesting...

Jack
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:29 pm

it's true that caution is required when taking products that label one nutrient and not necessarily all. or even if all factors are labelled but you only take it for one of many..

CJ have you been taking d3 over the last while? if so, may i ask how much you take, how often, and for what overall time period you have been doing so? thanks :)
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