all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby furch » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:36 pm

And just because someone proposes a theory that is far different from the mainstream, does not mean that theory is correct.


true, absolutely true, but nor does it make it incorrect because all the other theories that differs from mainstream is different. strange sentence:P

but do you mean that the CWD arent necceserily the underlying mechanism in autoimmune disease? or do you mean that they are, but the rest of marshalls theory is incorrect?

what about the results? people are clearly recovering with the mp, some diagnoses more than others perhaps. but what separates the various antibiotic-protocols from the marshall protocol is the vitamin-D-issue, it has to be some sort of factor that makes more people recover from mp than for example wheldon? (or do i have it all wrong?) of course very few with ms have done the marshall protocol, so things might be different from those with sarc,lyme,cfs etc... but I must admit im pretty astounded by the research of marshall - to me it makes perfect sense after spending hours daily for months reading about it, so thats my point of view anyways..

partly the reason i got very into reading about the MP, was because the hypothesis that vitamin is good for autoimmune disease, didnt fit my situation. Ive been doing relatively well since i got dx'd with ms. and some time in august i measured my to find myself D-deficient and started taking lots of supplements, went from 18 to 45 nmol in a couple of moths. But what happened to me then was that i had my first attack in three years after following the guidelines for d-deficiency treatment. Of course it wouldnt neccesarily have to be the d-levels fault, but one has to wonder... and marshalls theory does seem to explain this, and just because its controversial doesnt make it incorrect..

the question of normalization or optimization in d-levels seems to me like an unproven theory - since the studies telling us this - have major methodological flaws, who has proven vitamin d to be a causative agent of MS? no one(the sunlight-theory doesnt add up considering sardinia) - and most of these studies doesnt measure 1,25. so how would we conclude it works in a good way? its just like interferons, given that vitamin-D(which is a steroid according to all sources) will have to be immunosupressive, and naturally lead to a short term-palliation, right? so if the underlying cause is bacteria, immunosuppression cant be a good idea. if marshall actually is on to something, it would be an even bigger problem encouraging people to excessive amounts of it(which i did)

anyways im putting my bets in for marshall, and i guess time will tell what works best... :D
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Postby patientx » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:37 pm

Well, we're all responsible for our own health, and I wouldn't try to dissuade you from the using this protocol, if that's what you feel it best for you.

But to answer your question, I was saying that CWD bacteria exist; nobody disputes that. Whether they are the root cause of Sarcoidosis, I don't know. I know even less about Sarcoidosis than MS, but in the reading I've done, I don't think much evidence has been shown that bacteria is the cause. And what I was primarily questioning was Marshall's ideas about vitamin D.

I'm sorry to hear about your relapse. It does seem coincidental that it occurred just as you were getting your vitamin D levels up. But for me, I think I'm going to stick with the supplements. Much research has shown that vitamin D has important effects in turning off the inflammatory response. And researchers, like Cantorna, have been able to stop autoimmune diseases in animals using vitamin D supplementation. I know - these animal models are far from perfect models for humans, but, in my opinion, they are much better than a computer simulation.

I agree that a hypothesis shouldn't be dismissed just because it bucks a trend. But it shouldn't be readily accepted for that reason, either. And lots of theories seem to make sense, but just aren't right - the plum pudding model of the atom made sense at one time.
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:45 pm

i certainly have not read the latest posts carefully but certainly can vouch that supplementing d3 without attention to related elements is not necessarily the wisest thing. i did have some issues with after hi-dose d3, but then a wise pharmacist turned me on to magnesium which helped, and i also found out i was quite seriously zinc deficient and paying careful attention to all the various aspects (that i know about so far) seems to have helped in spite of my ongoing d3 supplementation. i'm currently taking about 25,000IU d3 per week. it's winter, i'm in canada, yada yada.
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Postby furch » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:46 am

I would say that the CWD bacteria absolutely is to be considered a plausable cause for autoimmune disease. I mean, look at lyme disease, their symptoms are identical to MS and fibro, and the different lyme pathogens are many, not just borrelia if ive understood it correctly.

i found this video pretty interesting, its a presentation by prof. Garth Nicols M.D. where he explains these similarities between ms,lupus,fibro and how they all fit into the lyme disease pathogenesis.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3504&hl=en

I'd say that lyme disease would be a very good conseptual accet for contemplating the MS, and not getting hung up on a spesific diagnosis entirely, since all these diseases are so much alike. If one or more pathogens can cause the disease-patterns in lyme, it would be very probable that another-perhaps unidentified pathogen with the same properties can cause the same mechanisms - where they infect the cells and cause the immune system to damage our myelin in the process of unsuccessfully trying to attack these pathogens. - a very plausable connection indeed - a recent study actually found chalmydia pnemonia in 100% of subjects.

check this out:

http://renegadeneurologist.com/bacteriu ... sclerosis/

100% study subjects with ms have cpn they say! and given that the CWD have parasitized a large quatity of immune-cells and/or red-cells, thereby subjecting the patient to have a reduced defence against the bacteria.

And for the d-vitamin-which is a steroid- if it did help the immune system in any way, the sunbading and d-supplementing MS-sufferers wouldnt be feeling good by taking them - as most do - but worse since bacteria cant be killed in the cells without some sort of discomfort...in-sillico or not, it makes perfect sense to me... thought it took a while to see why, given that i used to be a vitamin-D-patriot before:P

The confusion in research of the infectious cause is probably caused by the search for one spesific pathogen, and thats pretty mind-blowing when we know that under 1% of all bacterial species are identified..thats a fact. And how many that got an MS diagnosis are being tested? and of those that do, the inaccuracy of these tests shouldnt put the indication to rest. We know that the immunresponse in all autoimmune disease have the same pathogenesis as an infection - but the search for evidence and the benefit of the uncertain cause have blinded most proffesionals and put us in the situation were in today where the autoimmune response is being battled with expensive interferons which give no significant benefit. wouldnt you agree on that?
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Postby patientx » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:06 am

I would say that the CWD bacteria absolutely is to be considered a plausable cause for autoimmune disease. I mean, look at lyme disease, their symptoms are identical to MS and fibro, and the different lyme pathogens are many, not just borrelia if ive understood it correctly.


Again, just because something seems plausible does not make it so. And, while having some symptoms similar to MS, Lyme disease symptoms are not identical.

I find it interesting that Perlmutter's article starts with the word "recenty," since the study he cites was published in 1999.

a recent study actually found chalmydia pnemonia in 100% of subjects.


This statement is really taken out of context. The original article found the organism either directly or indirectly in the subjects. C. Penuomoniae was actually isolated in only 64% of the subjects. And the study included only 37 subjects.

But this discussion has gotten way off track from the original subject of vitamin D. Each person can believe what he wants, but I'm not going to deprive myself of a hormone the body needs anyway based on a theory that is questionable, to put it mildly.
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Postby furch » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:12 pm

sorry for the digression from vitamin D, but if this "questionable" theory is correct, which we cannot exclude(IMO), the bacteria are highly relevant...

anyways, good point on the "recentness" of the article:) ive been looking for the article myself but couldnt find any other than the one from 1999, but couldnt it be its so recent its not yet published? i suppose a neurologist have access to non-published papers if one is interested. guess well see, i also saw the perlmutter-article on the MSRC site.. anyways, even if it is from 1999 it doesnt make it any less significant
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Postby CureOrBust » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:12 pm

Have you found published, peer reviewed articles supporting marshal?
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Postby patientx » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:04 pm

He is quoting the 1999 article, and the reason I know this is "The evidence of Chlamydia pneumoniae in both progressive MS...." is a direct quote from that article. True, it doesn't call into question its significance, but why is he calling a 10 year-old study recent? And it does ignore the many studies and articles about the relationship between C. Pneumoniae and MS since then.

I am not trying to say that there is no chance that MS (at least in a subset of patients) is caused by a bacterial agent. On the contrary, I think it is very possible. However, I just don't find Marshall's theories on the D3 credible. And there are many here on ThisIsMS who are following antibiotic regimes, with the idea that the cause is C. Pneumoniae, but don't buy into Marshall's ideas.
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Postby CureOrBust » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:08 am

sorry if you misunderstood me patientx, I was asking about if there was any published peer reviewed articles supporting Marshals claims. :oops:

Actually, reading Furch's previous post, there are no published articles specifically supporting the claims of Marshal.
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Postby patientx » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:06 am

Sorry about the confusion, Cure. My last post was a response to Furch. The link to Perlmutter's article he posted refers to Srirams's orginal 1999 article on C. Pneumonaie and MS.

But, I agree; I haven't come across any journal articles supporting Marshall's claims.
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Postby MacKintosh » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:03 pm

Patientx, I'm with you; I'm one of the veterans of the Marshall, or Wheldon, antibiotic protocol, and I supplement with 8,000 - 10,000 iu of Vitamin D3 daily. By my reckoning, I'm 98% recovered from my major MS downhill slide, and I know I can feel like dog food when I let my D3 slip.

D3 has been implicated in cancer prevention and in improving many so-called 'autoimmune' conditions. I will never let my levels slide again. On CPn Help.org (the name gets truncated by the editors of this website, so you need to search for it) dot org, we have a couple of hot topics on all the latest Vitamin D research, so you guys might want to do a quick search over there.

Furch, you need to start a new topic, or find an old topic on the MP, rather than continue this conversation here. Bottom line, the MP uses subclinical doses of antibiotics, which, in itself, is dangerous and provokes resistance. That closes the case on the MP for me.
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HLA-DRB1 gene and Vitamin D....The cause?

Postby cheerleader » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:16 pm

Edited for Bob.....Here's the Abstract-
Expression of the Multiple Sclerosis-Associated MHC Class II Allele HLA-DRB1*1501 Is Regulated by Vitamin D


Researchers at Oxford believe they have found the cause of MS. Lack of vitamin D during childhood modifies a the DRB-1 gene....
The Oxford team have shown for the first time that vitamin D interacts directly with a gene, DRB1, which increases the risk of MS threefold. Proof of this has been obtained by infecting human cells with a short piece of DNA bearing the DRB1 gene and treating the cells with vitamin D. In this way the Oxford team were able to show that vitamin D stimulated the gene to work and express itself on the surface of the cell.

Other investigations by the Oxford team in collaboration with Canadian scientists have shown that MS is inherited preferentially through the female line as an “imprinted” gene. This explains why MS affects three or four women to every man.

It now seems likely that insufficient vitamin D is the crucial environmental factor that modifies the DRB1 gene into the imprinted form that causes MS and transmits it from one generation to the next. DRB1 is one of a family of HLA genes that code for structures on the surface of human white blood cells. And it is white blood cells that are involved in the “autoimmune” reaction that destroys the nervous system of MS sufferers.

The Oxford team believe that people with MS have white cells that are incorrectly programmed early in life. There are millions of different T-cells, a particular type of white cell produced in the thymus gland, each programmed to recognise and attack different types of invading bacteria and viruses. Ordinarily the T cells that might attack the body itself are deleted early in life in a stock-taking process. But this process can go wrong when certain genes that are normally masked by the imprinting process are mistakenly unmasked.

It appears that lack of vitamin D early in life impairs the ability of the thymus to delete these T cells and so they go on to mistakenly attack the body with what the Oxford team call “friendly fire”.


link

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Postby Loobie » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:00 pm

All I've got to say is "whoa". It sounds pretty definitive?
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Postby Lyon » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:05 pm

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Postby cheerleader » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:33 pm

You're right, Bob- that was the last published study.
Looks like the Times is doing a series on MS and vitamin D before the release of the latest study to be published in Plos.

Here's another article from Gillie in which he quotes Ebers for the interview.

George Ebers, of Oxford University, told The Times that for the first time there was hard evidence directly relating both genes and the environment to the origins of MS. His work suggests that vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy and childhood may increase the risk of a child developing the disease.

He has also established the possiblity that genetic vulnerability to MS, apparently initiated by lack of vitamin D, may be passed on to subsequent generations.

These risks might plausibly be reduced to giving vitamin D supplements to pregnant woman and young children. “I think it offers the potential for treatment which might prevent MS in the future,” Professor Ebers said.

“Our research has married two key pieces of the puzzle. The interaction of vitamin D with the gene is very specific and it seems most unlikely to be a coincidence of any kind. Serious questions now arise over the wisdom of current advice to limit sun exposure and avoid sunbathing. We also need to give better advice and help to the public on vitamin D supplements, particularly pregnant and nursing mothers."


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