all things vitamin D

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Postby Frank » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:32 pm

Whats the matter with him?

--Frank
Treatment: Gilenya since 01/2011, CCSVI both IJV ballooned 09/2010, Tysabri stopped after 24 Infusions and positive JCV antibody test, after LDN, ABX Wheldon Regime for 1 year.
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:43 pm

iffy methodology and shaky conclusions if i remember correctly. looked into it in '06 i think it was? i'm reaching a bit for details... but i think my reaction was along the lines of yes, some people might have excess 1,25 dihydroxyd3, but that doesn't apply to everyone, and it doesn't mean that optimizing 25 hydroxy stores is a bad thing for everyone. i'd have to go back over it all and refresh my memory to be sure!
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Postby patientx » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:38 pm

Frank wrote:Whats the matter with him?

I don't mean to bash the guy, but Dr. Marshall is not a medical doctor, and has no medical training. He has a PhD in electrical engineering.

But qualifications aside, his theory is questionable, at best. Much of it is based on computer simulations. I don't believe he has done any work in-vitro.
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Does vitamin D exacerbate MS?

Postby RuSmolikova » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:38 am

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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:05 am

there's a lot of literature out there to be read on d3 and ms
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Postby peekaboo » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:53 am

Hi RuSmolikova -

I purused the link you supplied. Lot of pro vitamin D info as opposed to the first essay stating that vit D is an after effect from ms and actually promote ms symptoms.

With all these studies out there one will say coffee is bad for you and then a new on says it can be good for you (antioxidant) It comes down to going with what you believe and what you are willing to risk. I am pro vitamin D. I am pretty much house bound and get very little D naturally. And the other benefits of D relating to breast cancer and other deseases are promising too .

Good website - I will bookmark it for future reading.
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Postby chrishasms » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:17 am

123
Last edited by chrishasms on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sou » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:22 am

Hi.

Indeed, it could exacerbate autoimmune diseases. But not a word about MS. Why do many studies conclude that vitamin D prevents such diseases? And how sure are we that MS is autoimmune? Unlike other such diseases, the evidence of autoimmunity and MS is lacking.

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Shortest joke: "We may not be able to cure MS but we can manage its symptoms."
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Postby patientx » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:26 am

I know I keep harping on this, but the article about the negative effects of Vitamin D is based on the ideas of Trevor Marshall. This isn't anything really new; he's been saying this for years. And everything in the article is a re-hash of what he's already written. I won't go into his ideas; I think he has a website where you can read all about it. But suffice it to say he and his small following are the only ones advocating this.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:15 am

That THEORY is that ms is caused by cell wall deficient germs and the whole problem is that your immune system is suppressed by vitamin D and causing thus the supposed infection to go wild...

and that if you decrease your vitamin d intake to deficient levels, like under 10, and at the same time take very high doses of benicar, an angiotensin (ARB) receptor blocker (usually used as a blood pressure medicine), this will activate your immune system and make it so super strong that the infection that causes MS will be relieved.

This theory is called the Marshall Protocol.

You can search this site for some "MS angle" information on it, but it is important to understand that the reason Trevor Marshall thinks benicar will activate the vitamin d receptor (while actual D will not) is from a computer model. He used this computer model to create all his theories, he is not a doctor, he is not even a medical professional, he is an electircal engineer with a PhD so he uses the term "doctor".

Please see this thread written by biodocfl who is a TIMS member who uses computer models to make new drugs (in legitimate pharmaceutical research).
CLICK HERE

Notice that biodocfl says that these models are well known to be unreliable and MUST BE FOLLOWED UP BY STANDARD RESEARCH TO VALIDATE THE SUPPOSED "FINDINGS". A computer model "result" is never taken as the truth until it can be shown to be true in real research.

In contrast, Trevor Marshall, an electical engineer whose field, EE, is entirely mathematical, puts out the incorrect notion that computer models are SUPERIOR to real reasearch. He claims regular lab research is "interpretive and prone to bias" while the computer models are "accurate".

While I believe it is possible for MS to be germ related, specifically Chlamydia pnuemoniae, the notion that it is helpful to reduce vitamin d intake to induce a clinical deficiency and that this will somehow help MS is dangerous to advance without rigorous studies, and I mean standard medical studies not an online group of people who are claiming success with no verification of that (it is well known that people who do not do well on the treatment are banned from the site and not allowed to post their experience).

Please be sceptical of this unproven theory. There is as JL said vast amounts of material supporting the addition of vitamin d to people with MS.
and as PX said this is an old idea, not an important advancement of any kind.
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Postby peekaboo » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:26 am

touche' well written...H.
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Postby patientx » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:48 am

Good summary, Marie.

I would just add that his original theory and treatment plan were developed for Sarcoidosis, under the assumption that it was caused by cell wall deficient bacteria. For some reason, this was picked up and applied to any disease that has a possible infectious cause.
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Postby Wonderfulworld » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:54 pm

Very interesting...excellent riposte MrRhodes too.
I actually had a brief bout of sarcoidosis 16 years ago, but it resolved itself. And I'm deficient in Vitamin D despite 3 years of supplementation.
TBH I'm not sure WHAT to think any more. :roll:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concussus Resurgo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RR-MS dx 1998 and Coeliac dx 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copaxone, Cymbalta. EPO, Fish Oils, Vitamin D3 2000 IU daily, Cal/Mag/Zinc, Multivitamin/mineral, Co-Enzyme Q10, Probiotics, Milk Thistle.
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:30 pm

ww i was just reading that boron affects your body's ability to deal with d3 have you ever heard about that?
what's your daily? have u ever done a megadose stint?
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Postby mrhodes40 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:11 pm

Thanks! Glad it helped

I have personally almost gone for this thing. I had to work very hard to understand it, then worked just as hard to decide it was NOT a good theory.

I suggest anyone who is thinking of it study it hard and read all the material they can. The most damning thing is that when you get down to it and follow the rabbit hole of their theories, at the bottom, you always get down to "molecular genomics". In other words, at the heart of every idea, it comes from that computer model, not from real studies.

They talk about real studies, but they approach them from the beleif that the computer model has given them some factual basis first, the real study is then assigned the role of supporting the theory or of being wrong.
There is no room there for actual scientifc debate.

I was most pleased to learn at the knee of biodocfl and grateful for his time to help me understand how those molecular genomic programs are known to be in the real world of actual researchers doing pharmaceutical reseasrch They are an important tool, but not fool proof. Their role is to help reduce the number of scientific experiments you have to do in the lab by letting you know ahead of time the things that will NOT work ---but they cannot tell for certain what WILL work.

Glaxo smith kline actually did a study on the most popular molecular genomics programs available to see how well they work and if a single program was superior. The result was that no program was correct all of the time and that the different programs all had things they did better and things they did more poorly than the others.

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/20 ... _match.php

If you read through the paper, technical as it is, you see how really bad these results are. You will find it hard to imagine someone would EVER have the arrogance to imagine that such a thing, just because it is mathematical is somehow "accurate". THAT is a person overly impressed with computers, and insufficiently humble about their limitations. No human being should put their health in the hands of a computer apologist with no respect for limitations of the program in question.

It is easy to see why biodocfl, a genuine researcher, uses several programs to screen things THEN does an actual study.

By the way, Marshall uses a program available for free on the internet.
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