all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby patientx » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:18 am

Shye and JL;

Thanks for the replies. It seemed strange to me that the level would drop so much in 2 months, especially considering I should still be getting some from natural sources. But it sounds like you guys are seeing the same thing.
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Postby msmything » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:44 am

PatientX, thank you for your reply, and yes, I was referring to JL, but your well thought out and informative response was VERY welcome. Now if I could get the Doc's office to call back!! That's what I love about this site, everyone has such experience, and the willingness to share.

In the meantime, may I ask how your Vit D levels were adjusted, I thought I read that it is an initial injection, followed by monster pills 1x week?

And how is Calcium def. treated?
Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle..
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Postby patientx » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:32 pm

msmything wrote:In the meantime, may I ask how your Vit D levels were adjusted, I thought I read that it is an initial injection, followed by monster pills 1x week?

And how is Calcium def. treated?


That may have been someone else. I never did the injections or the big weekly doses. I just took the pills (D3). It wasn't anything real scientific (and keep in mind I have no medical background). I started with the 400 IU/day, but as I read more, I realized this may be too low. So, I kept upping the dosage until I was up to 5000 IU/day. After a year and a half of this, I went from 20 ng/ml to 88 ng/ml. I don't have a good feel for what these numbers really mean, but I know 32 ng/ml is the recommended lowest number for a healthy level, and many consider this too low (especially for people with MS). I think now, I will settle around 1000 or 2000 IUs/day.

The one thing you have to watch with Vitamin D is that it is fat soluble and can buildup. Vitamin D toxicity and hypercalcemia can be 2 unwanted side effects. But I think you have to be way up there to worry about this - like around 100 ng/ml. Heck, the study Hopkins is doing uses 10,000 IUs/day.

By the way, when I went back for a follow-up with the first neuro I saw, he was going to order a vitamin D test. I've since moved on to an MS center at the local hospital, and there the head neuro is doing research on Vitamin D and MS. So, it seems docs are starting to think this has some significance.

Why do you ask about calcium deficiency? I think the reason that it was recommended calcium be taken along with the D is for two reasons: the animal experiments showed the combination of D/calcium was more effective than just vitamin D alone; and, since vitamin D helps with calcium absorption, I think there is a concern that too much can start leeching calcium form the bones.
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Postby shye » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:43 pm

a great site for vitamin D info:
www.vitamindcouncil.org
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Postby L » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:58 pm

patientx wrote:Heck, the study Hopkins is doing uses 10,000 IUs/day.


I'm taking double that, until winter is well and truly over.
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Postby Sawdoggie » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:22 pm

When I was diagnosed about a year ago my vitamin D level was 17 ng/ml and the neurologist recommended 1,000 IU a day. After some reading I upped that to 6,000 IU a day and after 6 months my level had risen to 77 ng/ml by December. I have kept that dosage and will be tested again in around two months. In the summer, I get lots of sun and I figured that that probably helped boost the number along with the suppliments. One interesting thing is that this is the first winter that I never even got a cold (knock on wood). Maybe a coincidence but with two young kids with lots of colds and sinus infections I thought going into the winter that it was just a matter of when. I also have had no real noticable MS symtoms besides maybe a little fatigue since everything resolved itself last June. I am also on Betaseron, Vitamin E, calcium, fish oil, green tea extract, and grape seed extract as well. Who knows, luck of the draw things have been going well, the combination of stuff, or one real "helper".
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:37 pm

hi guys, just checking in now.

i agree with px, it doesn't matter who orders the test for you, you have to be in charge of interpreting the results and charting the way forward based on the numbers. check back in when you have the data :) and never let them brush you off with the 'normal' thing!

huge decades long body of literature on this, and 4000IU per day is considered MAINTENANCE not a therapeutic boost. must be balanced and timed against calcium and magnesium. zinc is important too.

if you have never waded through that regimen of mine, there might be useful info in there. i have not been through there in a while so i can't recall all the deets but there is a crapload of D3 info early on - notice it does have that subtitle "formerly mega D" hehehe

nite folks :)
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Postby patientx » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:57 am

jimmylegs wrote:and never let them brush you off with the 'normal' thing!

Absolutely right.

huge decades long body of literature on this, and 4000IU per day is considered MAINTENANCE not a therapeutic boost.

Did you mean 400 IU here?
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Postby jimmylegs » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:00 am

nope!

[article link here]
Total-body sun exposure easily provides the equivalent of 250 µg (10,000 IU) vitamin D/d, suggesting that this is a physiologic limit.
To ensure that serum 25(OH)D concentrations exceed 100 nmol/L, a total vitamin D supply of 100 µg (4,000 IU)/d is required.
Published cases of vitamin D toxicity with hypercalcemia, for which the 25(OH)D concentration and vitamin D dose are known, all involve intake of 1000 µg (40,000 IU)/d. ...the weight of evidence shows that the currently accepted, no observed adverse effect limit of 50 µg [b](2000 IU)/d is too low by at least 5-fold.
[article link here]
Human serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol response to extended oral dosing with cholecalciferol
...Design: Cholecalciferol was administered daily in controlled oral doses labeled at 0, 25 (1,000 IU), 125 (5,000IU), and 250 µg (10,000 IU) cholecalciferol for 20 wk during the winter to 67 men living in Omaha (41.2° N latitude)...
Results: From a mean baseline value of 70.3 nmol/L, equilibrium concentrations of serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol changed during the winter months in direct proportion to the dose, with a slope of 0.70 nmol/L for each additional 1 µg cholecalciferol input. The calculated oral input required to sustain the serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration present before the study (ie, in the autumn) was 12.5 µg (500 IU)/d, whereas the total amount from all sources (supplement, food, tissue stores) needed to sustain the starting (autumn) 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration was estimated at 96 µg (3800 IU)/d. By difference, the tissue stores provided 78–82 µg/d.
Conclusions: Healthy men seem to use 3000–5000 IU cholecalciferol/d, apparently meeting > 80% of their winter cholecalciferol need with cutaneously synthesized accumulations from solar sources during the preceding summer months. Current recommended vitamin D inputs are inadequate to maintain serum 25-hydroxycholecalciferol concentration in the absence of substantial cutaneous production of vitamin D.
in '06 i used this second study to calculate how long it would take me to get to 100nmol/l taking 5000IU per day and it came out to something like 8 months which was when I first started investigating short term megadosing for a therapeutic boost, and then a few thousand a day maintenance.
hospital info desk turned me onto the 50,000IU/d x 10 days idea. it works! but watch it - when i discovered and fixed my zinc deficiency i did not at first realize how much that would improve my d3 absorption. if i were to do that regimen now i'd probably end up over 300nmol/l, where before that this megaboost got me to 149 nmol/l.

short question, long answer hehe
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Postby jimmylegs » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:34 am

i notice you said it yourself above, px - it took a year and a half on 5,000IU per day. on 50,000IU per day for 10 days i got mine from 72 to 149 nmol/l. i could probably do 25,000IU per day for 5 days to get a similar boost, at this stage. maybe i will try that out this spring.
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Postby patientx » Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:53 am

Oh, I thought you were quoting the USRDA (400 IU/day) as the maintenance does, and maybe added a zero. I see what you mean now.
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:12 am

hi ya no, the rda is rda-iculous
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Postby Vhoenecke » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:02 pm

I take 20 000 IU a day, I have finally reached normal D levels actually they are low normal. I will not listen to doctors that say no more than 2000 a day. A person needs to get D levels tested in their blood. Take care and have a great day.
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Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:55 am

i find zinc REALLY helps your body absorb the D3 intake. taking zinc made a massive difference. i have to take much less D3 than i used to have to take before, now that i sorted out my zinc. good stuff NHE!

vho, do you take any zinc? i used to be in your shoes, had to take 50,000IU/d for 10 days to get from 72 to 149 nmol/L.

tried it again after fixing my zinc status and after 8 days on 50K IU i shot up 170 nmol/L (ie from 103 to 271) instead of the 50 or 60 i was expecting (wanted to be in the 150s/160s).
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Sunlight may play role in Multiple Sclerosis risk

Postby MSUK » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:23 pm

When and where people are born may affect their odds of developing multiple sclerosis, according to researchers who found that children born in the early summer months in the Southern Hemisphere are more likely to develop multiple sclerosis than those born in early winter.......

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... ageid/1334
MS-UK - http://www.ms-uk.org/
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