all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby CVfactor » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:51 pm

NHE,

Good find. I hadn't read this paper. I think the important thing to realize is that the active form of vitamin D (1.25 OH2D3)can be generated directly by immune cells.

So, I believe that at the cellular level this is very important for modulation of immunity/autoimmunity at the site of inflamation by regulatory T-cells.

But since the "normal levels" of the form of Vitamin D that is circulating in your blood (25OHD3) from which the active form is derived is based on bone health instead of immune health, there could be a disconnect here.

This is where the problem lies. We need to have recommended blood serum levels based on immune health which seems to be a much higher level than is required for bone health.

I know when I became sick, I found out that my vitamin D level was deficient, but the doctors really didn't think this was a cause of concern.

The NIH and the National MS Society really need to push for more realistic values for vitamin D levels. This would cause food to be fortified with higher values such that vitamin D deficiency could all but be eliminated thus sparing many people from conditions such as MS and related diseases.

Sadly though I don't think this is going to happen unless people start to realize how important this is.
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Postby Dev29 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:08 am

I am a bit of lurker here but my main question w/ vitamin d is whether or not it impact men and women equally. I don't have any paper reference handy, but that it doesn't "work" in men or at least not as well.

Does anyone here have any information?
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:46 am

AFAIK it's more about age, skin colour, and amount of clothing and sunscreen use.

i found optimizing my zinc level improved my d3 synthesis/absorption. women tend to be lower in zinc than men.

that's about all i got at the moment :)
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Postby CVfactor » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:25 pm

Dev29 wrote:I am a bit of lurker here but my main question w/ vitamin d is whether or not it impact men and women equally. I don't have any paper reference handy, but that it doesn't "work" in men or at least not as well.

Does anyone here have any information?


I think the optimum amount to supplement with is different from person to person.

But here is a good graphic showing the relationship between supplementation with Vitamin D3 and your blood serum level:

Image

You can see that blood serum level of 25OHD that is considered "toxic" by many doctors is 250 nmol/L. According to this data, taking 10,000 IU's of vitamin D3/day would raise your blood serum levels to around 200 nmol/L.

However, in a recent high dosage study involving people with MS and vitamin D, the treatment group received an average of 14,000 IU's over a 52 week period with a maximum dosage of 40,000 IU's (I posted this information previously, but I'll post it here again for conveinance):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427749

And here is a graphic from this paper:

Image

So you can see from the chart in the lower right that the highest levels of 25OHD blood serum for the treatment group ranged from about 250-550 nmol/L for the same dosage of 40,000 IU's.

Personally, I take 40,000 IU's/day and have a 25OHD blood level of 250 nmol/L. I am not recommending that anyone take this amount, but this is what I have to take to reach the lower end of the "toxic" range. Please note: Toxic in conventional medicine means that you become hypercalcemic which means you have too much calcium in your blood. However, the people in the trial had normal calcium levels even though they were supplementing with 1200mg/day. To me, this means that high doses of vitamin D does not cause hypercalcemia, and in my case my blood calcium levels are on the low end of the normal range (9 mg/dL) without supplementation.

So, it is not just a matter of taking a certain amount of vitamin D/day. You have to monitor your blood serum levels. From my own personal point of view I have decided to not believe in conventional medicine and increase my blood serum level to the upper end of normal because there is a lot of evidence that vitamin D prevents auto-immunity by promoting regulatory T-cell development. Since I have been on this dosage, I feel better than I have ever since I became sick and have not had any relapses like I used to. But my situation is anecdotal. We really need to find out what are the optimum blood levels to prevent autoimmunity. Unfortunately this is just starting to happen now and I fear it may take a decade or two before this testing is completed.

Here are the conclusions from the high dose vitamin D study I posted above:

Image
Last edited by CVfactor on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:44 pm

CV can you please shrink those a bit, thanks.

also the amount for each person to supplement does differ, depending on how far they are from optimal.

BUT, dose response also varies among individuals. you can optimize absorption for your age, skin colour, and level of exposure.

take a base line d3 level. select a daily dose for ex amount of time and test again for the amount of increase. helps to keep in mind there's a lag time from exposure to max serum level.

a few years back while zinc deficient i took d3 50,000IU/d x 10d and went from 72 nmol/L to 149 nmol/L. a few years later while zinc replete i took d3 50,000IU/d x 8d and went from 103 nmol/L to 271 nmol/L.

so with replete zinc my dose response to d3 more than tripled. i never megadose the way i used to now. above 250 you get into the zone for increased risk of hypercalcemia (it is hypercalcemia that kills rats when vit d3 is used as rat poison)
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Postby CVfactor » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:26 pm

Here is a recent review article about Vitamin D and what potential it has in fighting many diseases:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066777/

Despite the recent expansion in vitamin D research, an immense gap remains in our knowledge of its multiple functions in the variety of cell types where the presence of vitamin D receptors and paracrine production of calcitriol have been established. However, it is now generally accepted that a strong connection between vitamin D and the immune system exists as suggested by several key findings: (a) the presence of VDR in activated human immune cells, (b) the ability of these cells to produce calcitriol, and (c) the ability of calcitriol to inhibit the proliferation of T cells. In addition, it has become increasingly evident in recent years that calcitriol plays a significant role in modulating the function of the immune system. Furthermore, many epidemiological studies strongly suggest that vitamin D deficiency and certain VDR polymorphisms may be linked to immune system related diseases such as multiple sclerosis, SLE, DM type I, alopecia (areata or universalis), and psoriasis.


And to expand a little more about the different forms of Vitamin D in the body, here is a graphic from this paper:

Image

This is a good graphic becuase it shows that many cells in the body produce 1,25(OH)2D3 a.k.a. Calcitriol at the local level from the main circulating form of 25(OH)D3. It is kinda of difficult to distinguish between the three types of Vitamin D because they are all referred to as Vitamin D, but they are distinct from each other.
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Postby CVfactor » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:03 pm

Here is a recent article that proposes the concept of the biography of the immune system which links infections such as Epstein-Barr with defective regulatory T-cells which are a characteristic of PWMS:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708340/

The immunoregulatory pathways are based on populations of lymphocytes, termed regulatory T cells (Tregs), in which there is currently considerable interest. In the case of infectious disease, such populations may lead to rapid resolution, the establishment of latent or persistent infection or to tissue damage by autoimmune processes [28]. Accordingly, Tregs have been termed ‘a dangerous necessity’ [29]. This term implies that Tregs are neither ‘good’ or ‘bad’ per se but may, according to the overall pattern of responsiveness, participate in appropriate immune reactions leading to resolution of disease or in inappropriate ones resulting in immunopathology.

The temporal sequence of infections, especially initial and early ones, is crucial to the development of patterns of immune reactivity as prior contacts with other antigens may have induced cross-reactive T-helper cells competing with Tregs. As a consequence Tregs normally induced by the second pathogen may be marginalized or even eclipsed. The latter phenomenon, also known as lateral inhibition, has many parallels in biology, particularly in neurology. The locking of an immune response into an eclipsed state seems to involve an active deletion of clones of T-cells occurring as a result of reinfections or reactivations [28]. In the case of MS, infections such as those with HHV-6 [30, 31] and, possibly, with CP [12, 26] occurring before or at the time of initial or reactivated EBV infection could have such an effect.
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Sun exposure, Vitamin D intake and progression to disability

Postby MSUK » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:54 am

Sun exposure, Vitamin D intake and progression to disability in progressive MS

Image

Summary: This study assessed vitamin D-related exposures from childhood to disease onset and their associations with MS progression among war veterans in the MS Surveillance Registry, based on self-reporting of sun-exposure and age at disability milestones.

Low average sun exposure in the fall/winter before disease onset was associated with an increased risk of progressing more quickly, whereas use of cod liver oil during childhood and adolescence was associated with a reduced risk. The authors propose that exposure to vitamin D before MS onset might slow disease-related neurodegeneration and thus delay progression to disability among patients with the progressive subtype.... Read More - http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... ageid/1334
MS-UK - http://www.ms-uk.org/
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RE MS LINK TO IMMUNE SYSTEM, LACK OF VITAMIN D

Postby seeva » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:49 pm

Hello friends there is a news todays sydney morning herald regaring m.s and luck of vitamin D.DR. graeme stewart of westmead millennium institute who led the Australian NewZealand study and DNA research find 57 genes linked to m.s and the study of mre than 1000 Australian has shown that m.s is primarily a disorder of immune system and vitamin D deficiency could be an important environmental factor in its development
For this study i gave my blood few years back Prof Graeme Stewart and his asst. dr. david booth and my neurology DR. Steve Vucic all are in the study when i see my dr on end of the month i can find more infomations.
regards
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vit d?

Postby Needfulthings » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:41 am

that is what prompted my doctor to push for a more agressive search for an MS dx my test results for Vitamin D was 9 (think I mistakenly said 14 in another post oops sorry) and <4 for the other im now on 50000 iu per week of Vitamin D......do you know of a connection with Vitamin D deficiency and weight loss Im losing weight very quickly lately
<div>MAY GOD BLESS YOU</div><div><strong><br /></strong></div><strong>Donna Giaquinto</strong>
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:16 am

have you checked out the zinc connection, need?

if not, here is some info:

i used to have low D3 and asked the hospital how to get my level up 50nmol/L fast. they said take 50,000IU per day x 10 days. i did so and my level went from low 70s to 149.

later i realized i was zinc deficient (ie 8.6 umol/L, normal range is 10-20, some sources say 11.5-18.5, and in the literature healthy controls sit in a tight average around 18.2 umol/L).

when i was zinc replete i got a d3 test of 103 nmol/L. i wanted to be closer to 150 so i decided to do 50,000IU d3 per day x 8 days. my followup d3 level was 271 nmol/L.

so my dose response basically tripled.

weight loss is a symptom of zinc deficiency, and zinc is known to be low in ms patients.

zinc is involved in over 300 process in the human body, so if it is involved in your low d3 levels, it could be affecting quite a number of other things you would not think were connected.

for instance my low uric acid level, which was stuck at or below the ms average for years, suddenly bounced up to the levels seen in healthy controls, after i corrected my zinc deficiency.

world's healthiest zinc foods:
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=115

certain drugs and foods impair zinc absorption, such as bread for example (gluten grains in general). phytates are also a problem for zinc absorption.

i saw one study where they took celiac patients and healthy controls and put both groups on a gluten free diet. serum zinc levels increased in both patients and controls.

what's your diet and supplementation and medication regimen like? there might be some clues there. for my part, prior to dx i had very little bioavailable zinc in my diet, and at the same time, ate plenty of foods that would impair zinc absorption. recipe for disaster!
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Postby mrbarlow » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:21 am

I would love to see some definitive research on what effect Vit D has post diagnosis and in respect to progression of disability.
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Postby euphoniaa » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:38 am

mrbarlow wrote:I would love to see some definitive research on what effect Vit D has post diagnosis and in respect to progression of disability.


Geez, I've been going steadily downhill since I started taking 4000 IU of vit D a little over a year ago - faster and faster since then. Same with Vit B12. :)

Seriously, I had negligible symptoms at diagnosis 8 years ago, but once I started dabbling in vitamins, supplements, made recommended changes to my already healthy diet, etc. - and finally quit smoking completely (was still puffing them some at dx) - I've become a major MS casualty.

I am NOT joking. Go figure.

P.S. And I also started making sure I get plenty of sun exposure - working in the yard, etc.
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Dx'd with MS & HNPP (hereditary peripheral neuropathy) 7/03 but must have had MS for 30 yrs before that. I've never taken meds for MS except 1 yr experiment on LDN. (I found diet, exercise, sleep, humor, music help me the most.)
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Postby daverestonvirginia » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:23 am

If you have not had your vitamin d level checked, I would do that. I was taking 4000 IU a day also, had my level checked and it was still very low. We should be looking for a vitamin d level of 125nmol/l. Everyone is a little different so the vitamin d level tests are important.
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Postby euphoniaa » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:57 am

daverestonvirginia wrote:If you have not had your vitamin d level checked, I would do that. I was taking 4000 IU a day also, had my level checked and it was still very low. We should be looking for a vitamin d level of 125nmol/l. Everyone is a little different so the vitamin d level tests are important.


About a year ago in May, I convinced my GP to test me for Vit D & B12. The numbers for both were VERY low. I was given giant Vit D caps (10,000 IU?), but was too scared to take them :)(major medphobia).

Instead I started taking Vit D 1,000 IU at a time, quickly working up to 4,000/day. I also had a quick B12 shot, then added 1000 B12 when I was sure Vit D wasn't going to kill me. (REALLY medphobic... :) )

Within a month or two I was tested again and both levels were fine. I've continued to take both D & B12 anyway, but they don't make me feel particularly good. Vit D is VERY constipating, and I have various irritating issues from B12 that I've written about elsewhere.

I know it's the Vit D, because I had never had constipation in my life (had the opposite) until the week I started Vit D. I assume the B12 has regulated that, because now the combination makes me 'relatively' normal.

Actually, I don't think many of my friends/acquaintances consider anything about me or my personality "normal", but then they don't ask me about my current bowel habits, or maybe they would. :)
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Dx'd with MS & HNPP (hereditary peripheral neuropathy) 7/03 but must have had MS for 30 yrs before that. I've never taken meds for MS except 1 yr experiment on LDN. (I found diet, exercise, sleep, humor, music help me the most.)
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