This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

I currently take 100mg zinc picolinate with 4mg copper every morning,

but i should be getting my bloods drawn on Monday and tested for either serum zinc or plasma zinc,

Do i need to stop taking the 100mg zinc picolinate and 4 mg copper, and other vitamins and minerals i take on a daily basis, before the blood are drawn?

if so, how many days bedore do i need to stop?

I will hopefully also get 25(OH)d3 and serum magnesium

- im going to drop the zinc picolinate down from 2x 50mg daily to 1x 50mg with 2mg copper from tomorrow, as i feel i may be taking too much zinc

thanks

you can stop taking zinc and any multivitamin/mineral pills containing zinc today, to ensure a good 'washout' before having blood taken.

100mg zinc per day is certainly only for short term therapeutic use. when my levels were really terrible my doc advised 100mg zinc for one month.

serum/plasma zinc are supposed to be comparable, let's hope so. if you can sneak a serum copper test in there too, so that you have your copper-zinc ratio, that would also be awesome

so glad to hear you're going for the testing!

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

thanks JL,

Is it best to also stop the vit d3 (5000IU) and mag glycinate (500mg) as i will 'hopefully get that tested too?
and do i continue to take my other supplements that don't contain the above = calcium, Vit B50, C, E, O3 Fish oil, Selenium (with vits A-C-E), Ocean Kelp, Klamath Blue Green Algae , Multidophilus probiotic,

is the copper test referred to as 'serum' copper?

im thinking of also asking my doctor to get tests for heavy metals and food allergies (as recommended in Dr Wahls book)
but is there specific tests i request?

hi yes, please stop taking anything that you plan to have tested. you should be okay continuing the others if you're not having them tested. there are certain interactions, so if you want a really REALLY clean read, stop taking everything until after your tests.

yes, the test is serum copper. in my xp this can be a stumper at the lab, and they may question the doc. this happened to me not too long ago, i had the patient assure the lab that it was serum copper that was wanted, but the test was never run, presumably because there was no reply from the requisitioning doctor (the doc couldn't (wouldn't?) clarify b/c he wasn't the one who had asked for serum copper - i was).

so if you're getting a serum copper requisition, make sure you include whatever the lab might need to be certain the doc wrote what he meant, serum copper, nothing else, nothing to do with wilson's disease or associated tests, just plain old serum copper.

food allergies are often food sensitivities. my stepdaughter had been assessed for food 'allergies' and had a list as long as your arm of foods she supposedly couldn't or shouldn't eat. i got her on a therapeutic zinc program, and at next test all her 'allergies' had magically disappeared. one of zinc's other jobs is to chelate heavy metals. imho the zinc test is the more fundamentally important test. i'll be very interested to see your levels.

all in all, if your zinc status and nutrition status in general is good, i don't think there will be any value in food allergy tests, because i don't think you'd find anything. but, if you do get them done, certainly the picture will be more complete. somebody else is going to have to chime in re which tests to order for heavy metals and food allergies.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

thank you JL, i will reconsider requesting the food allergies/heavy metals testing - i dont want to request too many tests on the NHS.

As the pilonidol sinus is still quite enlarged, i cant help but feel i need to stay on the zinc for now, and not rush for the test, which will mean no zinc for 5 days

or do you feel having the test done A.S.A.P outweighs having no Zinc pico for 5 days?

hmm i do think that you need to know the zinc status. if it's great, but you still have this sinus infection, then you'll know to keep looking for other solutions. which you can't do effectively, until you know about the zinc.

if there's a problem with your regimen, and it's keeping your antiviral antibacterial capacity suppressed in some way (including possible zinc malabsorption), testing sooner would be better than testing later.

can you do a little trial, where you quit supplements for 2 days to start, and see how it goes? if you're okay at 2 days, see if you can make it to 5 days, then get tested. if you feel too bad, then you could go back to your supplement regimen and wait a while.

another thought: if you decide to stay on the zinc and put off the zinc testing, you could still quit everything else for a week, then get just the vit d3 and magnesium tests done. what do you think of that idea?

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

No, if im getting tests done, i will have them all done at the same time . Im not a big fan of needles.

that 2 day trial sounds like a good idea, i will start the 2 days with no supplements/vitamins in the morning, as its 11:50 pm here now
but should i continue with Calcium, fish oil, selenium (with vits A-C-E) , Multidophilus probiotic, vitamins B50, C , E, Ocean Kelp, Kamath blue green algae?

I'll let you know how it goes after the two days via PM

try stopping ALL supps for 2 days, then we can re-assess in 48 hrs i'll check my inbox!

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

hi JL,

have just spoken to my private Doctor and he believes the serum zinc test is inferior because it doesnt measure the zinc in the tissue
- he also feels its illogical to have tests if you've not been taking zinc for days, he said you need to to get a reading of how your body is absorbing the supplements.

he believes taking 'the zinc taste test' which measures physiological zinc is superior to zinc blood test he uses
- 1gram zinc sulphate heptahydrate mixed with purified water

You gargle the liquid in your mouth and what you taste determines your zinc status.


Serum or plasma zinc levels are such a poor assessment of body zinc stores that clinical signs of zinc deficiency are not usually observed until plasma levels fall below 0.6 ug/dl for extended periods! Considering a generally accepted laboratory range of 70-150ug/dl as “normal”, we can see how poor these laboratory parameters are at assessing a patient’s zinc status.

http://www.funimky.com/downloads/The%20 ... 20Test.pdf


He also felt the same about serum copper & magnesium,
but did say if i have the D3 test, to not stop taking it leading up to the test

He couldnt understand why one would stop the vitamins before a test, as this is what we are trying to find out, how well absorbed the vitamin/mineral is

yet again i'm unsure which view to follow :s

hey there, measuring serum zinc allows you to compare your values to those reported in the scientific literature. it is not as valuable a test in terms of accuracy, but when you need replicated data for comparison, you have to go with what's out there in the majority of research.

washout periods are good for assessing baseline levels, and background levels (storage). when treatments are compared in multiple groups in studies, washout periods for true clearance (eg between treatment a and treatment b) tend to be much longer than one week, more like 4-6 weeks.

first time i ever did a washout, i wanted to get a clear read on my vitamin b12 status. i had been taking supplements before my tests for ages, and consistently coming up with low normal results. i wanted to know the consequences of my taking the supplements just for the day or two prior to the test. would i still be low normal? or would it be something more drastic? when i did the washout and had my serum vit b12 tested, my b12 levels were undetectable (the test was sensitive down to 75 pmol/L, so on the lab printout my result was 'less than 75'). the low level was purely a result of my dietary choices. anyone on a specialty diet alone, never mind a supplement regimen, needs to be able to check the effects on nutrient status. especially ms patients who have a known constellation of poor nutrient levels. and especially ms diets, which always seem to limit or cut out food sources of important nutrients.

i have heard of the taste test. http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... pageid/653
although i find this article well written, it bothers me that it is unreferenced. also the test is highly subjective, and i haven't seen ANY studies out there that would allow for meaningful comparison of your case to published data. there is plenty of data out there on serum zinc, however.

i agree that serum/plasma zinc levels are *usually* a poor assessment of body stores, but i can tell you that problems show up WELL before 0.6 ug/dL, which converts to 0.09 umol/L. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is actually making me pretty angry. the 'normal' range is 11.5-18.5 umol/L, and my original baseline test value (you can bet i didn't take any zinc beforehand, thank you!) was 8.6 umol/L. i was so screwed up i almost lost my drivers' license!! just because docs don't *understand* the signs of suboptimal zinc (eg, MS diagnosis!!) doesn't mean they aren't THERE. in the literature, healthy controls serum zinc levels are repeatedly up in the top end of the normal range.

the reason you stop taking the vitamins before the test is EXACTLY to determine absorption! i'm sorry to say so, but it doesn't sound like you have the right doc in the mix.

tell him you want serum values because you want to be able to compare your data to the decades of published nutrition science which use serum data. if he still says no, it's time to find another doctor, or go outside the NHS for private assessment.

as of now, i've reached the level of steam which tells me it's time to take a breather. learned my lesson a few years back, something about leading a horse to water. there has to be a perfect constellation of critical components for success in this approach, and here we seem to have everything in place except the medical professional. i can't do anything about that, but i hope you can. best of luck finding someone cooperative!

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Tissue zinc levels as an index of body zinc status
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract
Dietary depletion of zinc was found to result in a 30% decrease in the total body zinc content of experimental rats when compared with control animals. In the depleted animals there was no decrease in the zinc content of hair, skin, heart or three different skeletal muscles although the levels in plasma, liver, bone and testes were significantly reduced. The analysis of tissues from three patients suffering from disturbances of zinc metabolism suggest that man reacts to zinc deficiency in a similar way. These findings indicate that for a simple screening test of zinc status, analysis of the plasma zinc concentration remains the single most useful measurement.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

im sorry JL, it wasn't my intention to anger you,
i dont take what this private dr says as gospel, just another educated opinion like yours.

i havn't taken any vitamins today and wont tomorrow either, as per the 2 day test

i will still see the nhs doctor on Monday and request the serum tests,
thats if my legs dont weaken so much that i physically can't get there.

apologies for causing the anger, i appreciate all you shared knowledge

it's not you by any stretch! don't worry about that! i hope your legs stay strong - if you don't mind cutting down on the sugar, it could be useful...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3216610/
"...gastrointestinal problems of intestinal mal-absorption of nutrients, named “leaky gut syndrome” ... may lead to zinc deficiency, and zinc deficiency itself may further lead to gut syndrome resulting from over-consumption of fructose"

also..

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drug ... teractions
"Calcium supplements might decrease dietary zinc absorption. This usually doesn't seem to be much of a problem. However, this interaction can be avoided by taking calcium supplements at bedtime instead of with meals."

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

-

Good,

I dont consume any sugar, unless you mean the natural sugar in the fruits i eat?
if its fruit sugars, based on my breakfast smoothie, is that too much fruit/natural sugar?

i normally eat 1-2 cups of fruit in my breakfast smoothie (i stopped having the 2nd smoothie in the afternoon 3 days ago as felt it wasn't needed)
- but for the last 7 days i've been eating coconut meat after my lunch and dinner as a pudding
before this i just had a sprinkle of organic dessicated coconut with seeds

ive just seen the values for coconut flesh and they're so high in sat fats, and ive been indulging in coconut flesh after lunch, and dinner for the last 7 days!!
ii will cut coconut out of my diet immediately, based on the saturated fat, sugar and calorie content,
this has angered me, as its something i shouldnt have eaten on the diet, but i innocently thought it was okay!! so now ive stumped any improvements, god knows how long for

*i will change my 600mg cacium carbonate I have with dinner, to before bed

thanks