3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

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COPPER DEFICIENCY CAUSES ANEMIA

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:45 am

also from dec 2012
diet-f9/topic21310.html#p201570
yes the diet may have contributed to the nutrient imbalance, possibly interfered with copper retention, resulting in anemia and that among other consequences of the imbalance is probably not helping you feel any better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_deficiency
Iron Transportation
The anemia caused by copper deficiency is thought to be caused by impaired iron transport. Hephaestin is a copper containing ferroxidase enzyme located in the duodenal muscosa that oxidizes iron and facilitate its transfer across the basolateral membrane into circulation.[1] Another iron transporting enzyme is ceruloplasmin.[1] This enzyme is required to mobilize iron from the reticuloendothelial cell to plasma.[1] Ceruloplasmin also oxidizes iron from its ferrous state to the ferric form that is required for iron binding.[4] Impairment in these copper dependent enzymes that transport iron may cause the secondary iron deficiency anemia.[1] Another speculation for the cause of anemia is involving the mitochondrial enzyme cytochrome c oxidase (complex IV in the electron transport chain). Studies have shown that animal models with impaired cytochrome c oxidase failed to synthesize heme from ferric iron at the normal rate.[1] The lower rate of the enzyme might also cause the excess iron to clump, giving the heme an unusual pattern.[1] This unusual pattern is also known as ringed sideroblastic anemia cells.
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:53 am

I know you reported some issues with how you felt when boosting copper last year, but your dietary situation was different then. let's see if you can manage 2 weeks of higher dose copper now. just make sure the fructose isn't messing up your ability to properly process therapeutic intakes of zinc and copper.
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby dc10 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:52 pm

lynda,
i do eat a fair amount of nuts daiy , plus get protein from chicken/scallops/salmon,
thats a concern about carnitine as i have some L acetyl carnitine (havn't taken yet) , so ill have to re-think taking it.

JL,

I done a megadose of 3-4x2mg Copper for 10 days approx, then cut down to 2x2mg but clearly this didnt help based on my March reslts, maybe i should do the 4x2mg or maybe 5x2mg dose for longer than 2 weeks? are there risks/dangers in doing this?

re: fruit/starchy veg, i probably eat on average 4 pieces of fruit (equivalent). normally in berries strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, grapes)
starchy veg, i eat on average 2-3 servings a day, sometimes less

are these amounts too high?

thank you
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:04 pm

heya, ya what if you did 10mg copper for 2 weeks, PLUS control your fructose intake, and keep the starchy veg as is. the question then is, how much to reduce fructose intake, so that copper is retained and copper therapy is successful.

so i just went looking for sugars info on the various fruits. lots of detail at nutritiondata.com, eg this page for grapes:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fru ... ces/1920/2
if you expand the carbs section you can see the sugars breakdown and switch up the calculation using the drop down menu to select your serving size
Sugars 19.5 g
Sucrose 189 mg
Glucose 9072 mg
Fructose 10243 mg

grapes and blueberries seem to be a little higher in fructose (7-12mg). strawberries and raspberries look fine (3-4mg). obviously limes and lemons have next to no fructose (0-1mg). cherries and kiwi fruit seem to be in the same ballpark as strawberries and raspberries.

keeping these values in mind, i have seen recommendations suggesting no more than 25mg fructose per day with no more than 15mg from fruit (no time to go digging for backup right now). you could consider switching to lower-fructose fruit options in general, and especially while you are trying to increase your copper levels.

thoughts?
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:17 pm

It's a good idea to limit sugar, especially fructose:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... toxic.aspx
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:34 pm

I would modify that caution to say, not especially fructose from fruit though. fructose from pop and other processed foods should be cut long before fructose from whole food.
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby dc10 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:02 am

thats okay, i dont drink any pop or eat sugary food,
i still follow a dairy/gluten/legume/soy-free diet with no processed foods,
its essentilly the wahls diet with gluten free grains keeping fat low.

i will start the 10mg copper super-dose today, for 2 weeks, but would it be best to take 5x2mg copper tablets in one go with lunch, or spread out e.g. 4mg with breakfast, 2mg with lunch and 4mg with dinner?
after trhe two weeks of 10mg daily, what would be a suitable dose to drop down to sand stay on? i cant get tested again this soon , so will have to leave it a few months, unfortunately.

i also read this interesting article which says:
Lack of copper also affects the central nervous system and spinal cord and can mimic the symptoms of B12 deficiency. A person deficient in copper may experience demyelination of nerves in the brain and spinal cord, which can lead to sensory changes, loss of sensation, difficulty walking, tremor, loss of balance, difficulty swallowing, problems speaking, and depression. The symptoms of a copper deficiency in humans can mimic those of multiple sclerosis.

http://voices.yahoo.com/what-symptoms-c ... tml?cat=70

I also read about Menkes disease which involves having a lack of copper,
Its only since July 12' that i realised i was copper deficient, and i dont think i had my copper levels tested prior to this, so maybe i have had a copper deficiency all my life!
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:24 am

heya, for the copper I would not take it all in one go. how about two in the morning with some zinc, then 4mg and 4mg later on. are you taking zinc twice per day right now? or once? either way, concentrate zinc intake in the morning.

as for copper deficiency I had read that bit about it presenting similarly to b12 deficiency. obviously I couldn't say how long you have had your deficiency but I think if it was from birth, it would have caused issued that would have been picked up earlier by docs (or I would hope so at least).

either way, these test results are excellent info for your records. after your therapeutic megadose, try going back to 4mg per day, divided doses, for longer term maintenance. will be very interesting to see the results of next tests down the road a bit.
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby dc10 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:08 pm

Hi,
I take 1x 50mg zinc glyconate daily with lunch and do want to increase to 100mg zinc daily but as my copper is deficient and zinc depeltes copper, i cant risk my copper levels going lower and zinc is till fairly average just a bit on the low side.

Im hoping this 2 week megadose of copper will sort my low red/white cell counts, lymphocytes, haemoglobin out and subsequently improve my MS symptoms, to some extent
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:22 pm

good idea to stick with 50mg zinc in the morning for now. i think it's reasonable to hope for improvement in the blood count numbers, once you sort the copper level out. time will tell!
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:52 am

question dc, when were you diagnosed? was b12 ever tested as part of you msdx process? did you have the low blood counts originally too? since b12 is supposed to be part of the differential dx for ms, it does make me wonder if copper deficiency fell through the cracks

keep us posted on how you feel on the increased copper intake this week :)
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby dc10 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:14 pm

no i am unaware of any bloodwork, i was dx 10 years ago.


re: copper, i started the 5x2mg daily dose spread out, since yesterday and today had an urgen bout of diarrea and luckily made it to theb athroom in time, but this does concern me due to my occasional incontinence and having read this site talking about seizures being a symptom of copper toxicity:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/49610 ... overdoses/

i may just take 6 or 8mg copper daily for 2weeks then cut down to 4mg daily to prevent taking such a risk
what d you think?
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:08 pm

wow! sounds like it was a shock to your system to introduce the UL daily amount suddenly like that.

probably wisest to ramp up slowly. ie 4 mg per day for a couple days, the 6mg per day foe a few days, then try 8mg (all of this in divided 2mg doses of course), see what your system can tolerate on a daily basis and then stick with that for the two weeks. all the while paying attention to / keeping track of any changes pro or con, of course.

after that you could back it off to 4mg/d as a maintenance dose over the next while until you can order more tests.

did you ever see that ophthalmologist, by the way? did you get Wilson's ruled out definitively?
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby dc10 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:51 pm

Good plan JL, i will see how it goes and ramp up slowly this time,

I am due to see the opthalamologist in July, so will mention it then,
is there anything i can say to persuade further testing, besides the fact im copper deficient?
not sure if i asked before, but do you know if this could be a cause of my slightly short-sighted-ness and/or the nystagmus?
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Re: 3 months after adding carbs but im still Anemic!!

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:14 pm

sounds good :)

as for persuasion, i can't think of anything general off the top of my head... why not print off some supporting abstracts and have them handy in case they say no. that's what i did originally, and it has stood me in good stead. at this point i'm just really good at arguing with docs that say no >:D

as for the copper thing, i don't know but i found this

Copper deficiency in piglets characterized by spongy myelopathy and degenerative lesions in the great blood vessels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6631890
"Copper deficiency was diagnosed in piglets from a farm in the Transvaal. ... Affected animals showed signs of ataxia, posterior paresis, horizontal nystagmus... A paucity of myelin in the spinal cord and degenerative lesions involving elastic fibres of the aorta and pulmonary artery were detected."
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