Adventures with magnesium

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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:04 pm

jimmylegs what type of potassium do you recommend. For right now, I think I will go with a supplement.

Thanks,
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:07 pm

last time I went to the pharmacy and asked for high potency potassium, they gave me this:

Apo K 600 mg by Apotex
http://naturaldatabase.therapeuticresea ... eSupport=1

while searching for an easy product link, I found a recall from may 2013. looks like some sort of metal particles got into the tablet coating: http://www.apotex.com/ca/en/pubadvisori ... dom_en.pdf

it's been a few years since I used this product but it was fine and I have recommended it to others since with no complaints
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby lyndacarol » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:25 pm

And here is the convergence of jimmylegs' and my thinking:

Dietary Mg is absorbed in the small intestine, the same area affected by gluten in those with celiac disease, so it's no surprise that there are implications there.

And from a 1968 article!…

Magnesium Metabolism, a study published in The New England Journal Of Medicine, March 28, 1968 (http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM196803282781306) found a "striking magnesium loss" in the stools of those with untreated celiac disease—up to four times as high as dietary Mg intake. That same study found that "this remarkable loss was reversed by the institution of a gluten-free diet."
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:26 pm

jimmylegs, The K arrived today (http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Potassium-Gluconate-1-pound/dp/B0015C2ZI2)

I eat very few fruits and vegetables (not that I don't like them).
I've been treating with Mg for about a year and a half (oral and transdermal) and about a year since cutting out Vitamin D, alcohol, and dairy products (calcium).
Up until a week or two ago I was still taking 2,000 mg TRS Mg glycinate.
Now, the hard, lumpy stools have ended :-D, being replaced with more or less normal ones.
I currently take 200-400 mg of Mg per day.
Following a strong 1-2 hour Mg foot soak, muscle behavior improves greatly for an hour or so.
Lower intake of Mg causes spasticity/hypereactivity of muscles to worsen.
The foot soaks also lower the volume of the pulsatile tinnitus .
Muscle symptoms are much worse after inactivity - sitting and, especially, a night's sleep.
While it lasts, the niacin flush works wonders all around (except with the tinnitus).

Regarding K and P and anything else, what do I need to know? :?:

Thanks,
THX1138
Last edited by THX1138 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby Anonymoose » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:36 pm

This calcium/magnesium thing confuses me. Too little calcium can cause symptoms that feel like too little magnesium...muscle tension and contractions. If magnesium stops working, I would be suspicious that calcium or magnesium co factor levels were depleted via supplementation of magnesium. I'd be tempted to try b-complex and/or calcium to get it working again.

Personally, I think all of the interactions are too complicated to continue using individual supplements or mini cocktails long term. As big of a pain it is, we need to get our nutrients in natural doses and combinations from food, not pills. :(
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:37 am

anon, from what I've seen to date, magnesium varies a lot more than calcium in serum and low mag is more likely to be a cause of excess muscle tension. I would expect that if calcium were low in relation to magnesium that one clear symptom would be muscle weakness. I have felt it before.

a healthy nutrient dense whole food diet is always the best foundation. and organic, to help combat phosphorus' negative influences on magnesium status (although in your case the diet coke is probably a bigger factor...). I personally chose to give up my vegan dietary restrictions rather than depend on our limited understanding of science to do it all with supplements. so my diet is radically changed and the supplements take care of the rest.

the good thing in your case is that you know about a lot of your challenges at once. should help keep you safe. early on I only knew about one at a time and would act with no awareness of interactions and consequences. for you, I think iron is number one (with b complex as well, for b3, b6, b12 etc) which agrees with what you have already decided. I expect iron will continue to be an issue for as long as you are a mostly vegan gluten lover ;D at the same time i don't think it would be a good idea to ignore magnesium or d3 status once you've sorted the iron issue. will be good to slow down and deal with all the new info at a more manageable pace. i know it can be overwhelming - i know i ignored a lot of the klenner protocol in the early days because it was too much info to absorb. at the same time it was NOT something i needed to do for very long. it did its magic pretty fast and then i just built on it from there.

I totally agree that megadosing is not smart over the long term - especially for those that don't get any testing done. it's really great that you've had the testing done that you have. (you have a b12 result somewhere do you not?)

you can take those results off now anon, thanks for posting :) send me a b12 result if you find one!
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:11 am

Heya jimmy,

I was speaking in general, not about me! Lately, on here and in emails, I've heard a couple of complaints about magnesium or something else not working anymore. My ever curious mind has been gnawing away at the issue. Looking at my own history with supplements starting in September of 2012, I see that I went about it in the wrong way. I would read some supplement is great for ms and take it, completely oblivious to co factors and interaction with absorption of other nutrients. I don't think I am alone in that behavior. The nutrition learning curve is steep!

I know you advocate getting as many nutrients as you can from diet but for me, that just didn't stick because there wasn't a very loud explanation about co factors, competing nutrients, or how much your body can actually absorb and use at once ..or maybe there was and I just didn't absorb because I was overwhelmed. :P I'm just trying to open up that part of the conversation.

B12 is high.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:13 am

re b12, right I knew that. thanks.

it's definitely tough to strike the balance between too much info and too little early on. and yes the learning curve is a steep one! which is why I'm always banging the drum for testing and not flying blind. certainly it is an important conversation to have!
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby tzootsi » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:02 am

Just wanted to jump in - if you're looking for natural sources of magnesium and zinc, pumpkin seeds or pumpkin seed butter is about the highest of any food.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:13 am

squash seeds too - whenever I get winter squash I roast up the seeds SO GOOD
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:47 am

jimmylegs, The K arrived today (http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Potassi ... B0015C2ZI2)

I eat very few fruits and vegetables (not that I don't like them).
I've been treating with Mg for about a year and a half (oral and transdermal) and about a year since cutting out Vitamin D, alcohol, and dairy products (calcium).
Up until a week or two ago I was still taking 2,000 mg TRS Mg glycinate.
Now, the hard, lumpy stools have ended :-D, being replaced with more or less normal ones.
I currently take 200-400 mg of Mg per day.
Following a strong 1-2 hour Mg foot soak, muscle behavior improves greatly for an hour or so.
Lower intake of Mg causes spasticity/hypereactivity of muscles to worsen.
The foot soaks also lower the volume of the pulsatile tinnitus .
Muscle symptoms are much worse after inactivity - sitting and, especially, a night's sleep.
While it lasts, the niacin flush works wonders all around (except with the tinnitus).

Regarding K and P and anything else, what do I need to know? :?:

Thanks,
THX1138
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:23 am

glad that you got the K and that your magnesium seems to be kicking in!
keep the P down in relation to Mg (choose organic produce; balanced diet; avoid dark coloured colas/sodas)
any serum mag tests lately?

also: you might find this info useful
http://www.mgwater.com/inmgdef.shtml

I thought the bit on boron and copper might be interesting
also, the tidbit on taurine.

on the (major) taurine biosynthetic pathway:
"Although several possible variations exist, extensive investigation has led to general acceptance that the major pathway for taurine biosynthesis in mammalian tissues follows that originating with methionine .... cysteine .... cysteinesulfinic acid .... hypotaurine .... taurine (11, 124; see also Figure 1)."

nutritiondata foods highest in methionine
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-w.html

whfoods info on cysteine
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... nt&dbid=54

nutritiondata foods highest in cystine
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-w.html

what's the diff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Dietary_sources
"Cysteine can usually be synthesized by the human body under normal physiological conditions if a sufficient quantity of methionine is available. Cysteine is catabolized in the gastrointestinal tract and blood plasma[citation needed]. In contrast, cystine travels safely through the GI tract and blood plasma and is promptly reduced to the two cysteine molecules upon cell entry.[citation needed] Cysteine is found in most high-protein foods..."
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:31 pm

:-D Thanks a bunch jimmylegs. :-D

In November 2013 I had a serum Mg test. I didn't know I was going to get one, so I didn't do a wash-out.
I had used some Mg oil on my forearm a few hours before the test.
The result of the test was 2.2 mg/dL. Also this was at a different lab than the 1.8 mg/dL from before.
I've heard it said that each lab uses different equipment and, thus a different "normal" range. Is this true?

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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:09 pm

okee. re labs having different ranges yes it's true - standard practice in a lot of cases.. but only matters for ppl who don't have evidence for what levels should be in spite of lab-to-lab idio..syncracies.

what you have learned from not doing the washout is that even with recent high intakes, your circulating levels are still below optimal. which is nuts. hope you can get another clean test in the near future. and that the results are good news now that you have potassium in the mix! :D
because i have not seen any studies on safety of long term mag glycinate megadosing. yes we want your serum levels to be up around 2.7... but not at the expense of some other possible impact we don't know about.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby NHE » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:18 pm

jimmylegs wrote:what's the diff?

Cystine is two molecules of the amino acid cysteine linked together via a disulphide bond.

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