Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:01 pm

......With a splash of Hyperbaric O2 & Magnesium IVs thrown in there!

Hi everyone,
New member Kira here. I accidentally started a post with same Subject Line as above, but didn’t realize that when I selected the appropriate Forum for it to be listed on that I sent it; so please disregard blank post without anything but Subject Line filled in. It might be a little clunky as I navigate way around posting, etc., so please forgive rookie mistakes.

I’ve been reading and lurking for awhile and am impressed with the collective intelligence of all of you, so I’ve chosen this forum & Bart’s to invest time and energy into.

My topic and questions:
1. Is anyone besides me using the combo above? I’m doing 1200 mg. LA + HiBiotin 300 mg. + 4.5 mg. Naltrexone + weekly HBOT + Monthly IVs (alternated between Mag + Bs and A-LA). My naturopath and I have been working for 1.5 years on the whole Krebs/Citric Acid Cycle + Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex.
We’ve been trying to provide the co-factors for the steps of PDC (Thiamine, Riboflavin, CoQ10 and Lipoic Acid), and shunt my high urinary lactate to Pyruvate, etc. She’s educated me over and over about MS as a Mitochondrial/Energy issue (similar to the latest skeleton you posted Friday, Leonard). We are emulating (w/my neurologist on board, as well) the LA and Biotin doses being used in the two clinical trials, despite mixed outcome data.

2. Related to #1 above, please share your current use of Lipoic Acid, if any, and the results. I followed the trail of breadcrumbs here, largely written about by moderator NHE, of Racemic-LA vs. S-Lipoate, and the suggestion by one member that everyone take what they’re taking for a few months and report back. Please weigh in now and report back, if you have time. I’d love to hear others’ experiences. My experience: I’m alternating days: Day #1 = 300 mg. S-Lipoate and Day #2 = 1200 mg. A-LA. Naturopath suggested that because Rebecca Spain’s trial at OHSU/Portland VA used A-LA, and still reported that 68% reduction in brain atrophy.

3. Same question above re: Biotin. Please do share current use and results. Me? I’m using Allergy Research Group’s HiBiotin, 100 mg. 3 x daily.

My experiences of both:
1. BIOTIN: This was suggested to me a year ago by a neurologist in the MS Clinic at OHSU, as I live in Oregon, and a clinical trial using same was starting the day after I saw her, so she thought I could emulate what they were doing. I had a major flare-up in July 2016 which led to insane leg weakness and heaviness, and after being on 300 mg. For a year this month, I think Biotin has been the thing that’s relieved that heaviness and weakness to some degree and allowed me to work out again.

2. LIPOIC ACID: Along with the leg heaviness in July 2016, the flare up led to my first cognitive symptoms in my 20 MS years. My working memory became severely impaired, and “dysfunction in free recall of long term memory” (what I’ve read as one of the MS memory impairments) was staggering. I started Hyperbarics 6 months after flare up, per Paul Harch’s MS protocol of 80 HBOT sessions, and am now on Session #70. I started 1200 mg. A-LA mid-December 2017, and then switched to the alternating Racemic & S-Lipoate mentioned above only two weeks ago.

After 1.5 years of cognitive changes re: memory, attention and language (bad short and long-term memory and terrible attention issues, as well as typing and reading dyslexia), something has shifted just a bit, and now I can occasionally remember what I am walking into a room to do. I haven’t known whether to attribute this to the Lipoic Acid started in December, or to the accumulation of HBOT sessions (I.e. inching up to 80 sessions has finally perfused my brain damaged areas with blood). Anybody have any experiences similar or dissimilar to share?

I have so much more to share and ask, but this is a start. So glad to be part of all this.
Best, Kira.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Advertisement

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby NHE » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:45 am

DaisySue wrote:2. Related to #1 above, please share your current use of Lipoic Acid, if any, and the results. I followed the trail of breadcrumbs here, largely written about by moderator NHE, of Racemic-LA vs. S-Lipoate, and the suggestion by one member that everyone take what they’re taking for a few months and report back. Please weigh in now and report back, if you have time. I’d love to hear others’ experiences. My experience: I’m alternating days: Day #1 = 300 mg. S-Lipoate and Day #2 = 1200 mg. A-LA. Naturopath suggested that because Rebecca Spain’s trial at OHSU/Portland VA used A-LA, and still reported that 68% reduction in brain atrophy.


Hopefully, you really meant R-lipoic acid and not S-lipoic acid. I'm not aware of S-lipoic acid being available commercially except from laboratory supply companies such as Sigma-Aldrich. S-lipoic acid is a synthetic enantiomer present in racemic ALA, i.e., 50% R and 50% S. S-lipoic acid has some negative physiological costs. natural-approach-f27/topic4347.html
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:47 pm

Hi NHE,
Thanks for catching that mistake. I did mean that I’m alternating A-LA with the 50/50 mix. with the other form, R-Lipoic. I was getting my ‘S’ mixed up because I quickly read on the bottle I bought that R-LA is referred to as Sodium R-Lipoate (so I said S-Lipoic).

So what I’m doing is Day 1 = 300 mg. R-LA, and Day 2 = 1200 mg. A-LA. Naturopath thought it’d be better to alternate because the clinical trial used A-LA; don’t know if I agree with her after reading the citations mentioned, and I might just switch to only R-LA.

I think I remember from your last post on the subject several years ago that you took it for a bunch of months (R-LA) and noticed no change. Have you tried it again?

And, member Jimmylegs, you seem very nutrients savvy: are you doing LA, or high Biotin?
Anyone else?
Best, Kira.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby NHE » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:57 pm

DaisySue wrote:Thanks for catching that mistake. I did mean that I’m alternating A-LA with the 50/50 mix. with the other form, R-Lipoic. I was getting my ‘S’ mixed up because I quickly read on the bottle I bought that R-LA is referred to as Sodium R-Lipoate (so I said S-Lipoic).

In chemistry, sodium is abbreviated as Na from the Latin name Natrium.

DaisySue wrote:So what I’m doing is Day 1 = 300 mg. R-LA, and Day 2 = 1200 mg. A-LA. Naturopath thought it’d be better to alternate because the clinical trial used A-LA; don’t know if I agree with her after reading the citations mentioned, and I might just switch to only R-LA.

It's beyond my comprehension why the PIs for that trial chose to use an inferior form of lipoic acid. Had they used something like Na-R-Lipoate, then they may very well have obtained a larger treatment effect.

DaisySue wrote:I think I remember from your last post on the subject several years ago that you took it for a bunch of months (R-LA) and noticed no change. Have you tried it again?

Yes, I started taking it again. I tried 200 mg/day, but noticed excessive weight loss (which is consistent with its reported activity in enhancing glucose metabolism). I've since switched to 100 mg/day as I'm already at the lower end of a normal weight range on the BMI scale and don't have much to spare. I realize that this sounds like a low dose. However, R-lipoic acid has been reported to be 6-12 x more effective than S-lipoic acid (though this is likely an oversimplification since S-lipoic acid has negative physiological effects) so taking the purified R form is likely of some benefit.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Do you take any of the other co-factors that feed what they call the Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex, as well? Do you take normal or supraphysiologic doses of Thiamine or CoQ10? As previously mentioned, my naturopath has tested my pee a bunch of times to look for energy deficits and Krebs Cycle malfunctions, so I’m taking all of them (though not huge doses of any but the LA).

The thing I’ve noticed since starting 1200 mg. LA daily is that it’s making me hypoglycemic and really hungry—I know it can be used to reverse hyperglycemia, and it’s not severe enough to make me stop, but it’s been a definite pinpoint-able side effect of it for me.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:11 pm

Hi again NHE,
Kira here. I just re-read one of your older posts, from 2010, in which you pulled out info from the abstract that discusses the + and - of R vs. S. I realize I’m being a moron. There’s no reason why I should stubbornly insist on taking the Racemic form just because I already purchased and paid for it.
Do you think you could re-direct me to the post you wrote in which you pull out the data on S to R conversion numbers (mg. To mg.)? I read all old posts on LA here before I became a member, so I do remember seeing it, but now can’t backtrack.

I ask because the only thing that feels too squishy is the “how much” question? I remember your citation said that the R form is 6-12x more potent, but since that’s a huge range I don’t really know how much R-LA to take. Any willingness to throw the link again which talks about equivalencies; I’d sure appreciate it.

The last thing I’ll say on this—not to wear out my welcome as soon as I join :)— is that I had a possible aha moment as soon as I wrote about hypoglycemia as a side effect of starting 1200 mg. ALA in December. That aha was that realization was that maybe hypoglycemia was stimulated by the Racemic form, one of those unwanted physiological effects?
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:45 am

Hi Kira if i may, i am interested in your efforts re krebs cycle. do you have any or all of serum zinc, serum ua and serum ammonia results on file?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 11234
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby NHE » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:34 am

DaisySue wrote:Kira here. I just re-read one of your older posts, from 2010, in which you pulled out info from the abstract that discusses the + and - of R vs. S. I realize I’m being a moron. There’s no reason why I should stubbornly insist on taking the Racemic form just because I already purchased and paid for it.

If it were me, I would just finish it off and then switch to Na-R-lipoate.

DaisySue wrote:Do you think you could re-direct me to the post you wrote in which you pull out the data on S to R conversion numbers (mg. To mg.)? I read all old posts on LA here before I became a member, so I do remember seeing it, but now can’t backtrack.

I ask because the only thing that feels too squishy is the “how much” question? I remember your citation said that the R form is 6-12x more potent, but since that’s a huge range I don’t really know how much R-LA to take. Any willingness to throw the link again which talks about equivalencies; I’d sure appreciate it.

I don't recall ever seeing a mg to mg conversion factor for ALA to Na-R-lipoate. I mentioned the 6-12x factor in one of my early posts to the forum. natural-approach-f27/topic643.html#p4483 However, I haven't read those old lipoic acid journal articles in over a decade so, other than a search on PubMed, I really wouldn't know where to begin.

There was a research paper published in 2007 that compared R-lipoic acid vs. Na-R-lipoate and found that Na-R-lipoate was better absorbed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18069903

    Different forms of RLA produce dramatically different PK values. Recently, RLA was compared to NaRLA in humans using a simple crossover design.43 This study compared Cmax and AUC values of a pre-dissolved aqueous solution containing 600 mg RLA (as NaRLA) to those of 600 mg RLA in the same subjects. In a single male (subject 1), NaRLA produced Cmax of 14.1 mcg/mL; whereas, RLA resulted in a Cmax of 0.7 mcg/mL (increase of 25.86x). The AUC in the same subject was 5.18 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA versus 1.56 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 3.3x). In a single female (subject 4), Cmax was 18.1 mcg/mL for NaRLA versus 1.01 mcg/mL for RLA (increase of 17.9x) and the AUC was 5.71 mcg hr/mL for NaRLA compared to 2.14 mcg hr/mL for RLA (increase of 2.67x).

DaisySue wrote:The last thing I’ll say on this—not to wear out my welcome as soon as I join :)— is that I had a possible aha moment as soon as I wrote about hypoglycemia as a side effect of starting 1200 mg. ALA in December. That aha was that realization was that maybe hypoglycemia was stimulated by the Racemic form, one of those unwanted physiological effects?

Lipoic acid is known to enhance glucose metabolism. I don't see a link to the S enantiomer.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:00 pm

Hi Jimmylegs and NHE,
Thanks for your responses to my post about LA.

Jimmylegs, to answer your question about my serum Zinc, Ammonia and Uric Acid re: Krebs/Citric Acid Cycle that my naturopath is working on with me: We haven’t tested those, specifically. The pee test that we’ve repeatedly used is GENOVA’s Urine Organic Acids Profile. I think it’s a phenomenal test, the biggest bang for my diagnostic buck, in terms of how glucose metabolism is functioning in me (or not).

NHE,
Thanks for re-referencing me back to your older posts on the various forms of LA.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:33 pm

Hi NHE,
Which Na-R-Lipoate are you using? Are you still using Doctor’s Best form that you mentioned awhile ago?

Also, How much thiamine are you taking daily? I saw your January post re-posting links to a couple of journal articles on fatigue and thiamine, and Jimmylegs’ recap of high dose Thiamine and Klenner protocol. What’s your experience been?
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby NHE » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:40 am

DaisySue wrote:Which Na-R-Lipoate are you using? Are you still using Doctor’s Best form that you mentioned awhile ago?

Yes.

DaisySue wrote:Also, How much thiamine are you taking daily? I saw your January post re-posting links to a couple of journal articles on fatigue and thiamine, and Jimmylegs’ recap of high dose Thiamine and Klenner protocol. What’s your experience been?

I've tried 300-400 mg thiamine. I felt a little boost in mental energy with the first dose, but not much afterwards with subsequent doses. I have yet to try a full 600 mg dose at once.
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:30 pm

hi again fwiw my own clearest early indicator of disfunctional krebs was recalcitrant low uric acid. threw high purine foods at the problem like an idiot for ages.
in a separate line of inquiry, tested zinc and it came back deficient.
later, encountered the inverse correlation between serum zinc and serum uric acid.
tested serum zn and serum ua together and finally showed in results a high normal serum ua level (had always been 'normal' - spot on the ms average or lower), with high normal serum zinc.
later still, noted inverse correlation btw serum zinc and serum ammonia. seemed no point to testing serum ammonia at that late state.
experienced worst symptomatic brain damage while zinc deficient and consuming high purine foods.
things cleared up rapidly after zinc, uric acid, and presumably neurotoxic ammonia levels were back in line.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 11234
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:06 pm

Hi Jimmy,
Kira here. Just writing to say thanks for sharing the Zinc + Uric Acid connection.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:05 am

np. low normal uric acid in ms patients was the first step down that road. what was your route to investigating krebs and how specifically did it end with urine testing? does the urine testing allow for any conclusions re uric acid status, whether it remains ms average normal, or moves to healthy controls normal?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 11234
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: Lipoic Acid + Biotin + Naltrexone

Postby DaisySue » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:11 pm

Hi Jimmy,
Kira here. To answer your question about Krebs/Citric Acid: My naturopath ordered the Urine Organic Acids Profile I mentioned, and many alternative labs have similar tests (Great Plains Labs, Metametrix, Doctor’s Data).
The whole first section of results is about Carbohydrate Metabolism: The Pyruvate complex, L-Lactate, ATP, Mitochondria, Glycolysis, etc. I have a broad-stroke understanding only about energy metabolism, but we’ve repeated the test enough now that I know what trends to look for.
I highly recommend to any patients with neuro disease.
DaisySue
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:27 pm


Return to Natural Approach

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Contact us | Terms of Service