Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to vitB1

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Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to vitB1

Postby David1949 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:08 pm

split from general discussion:

Jimmylegs
... I have a closet full of minerals, herbs and vitamins I've tried because someone said they help with MS. I've also tried all kinds of diets which purportedly help MSers. I even had a catheter run up my veins and an angioplasty balloon inflated in my jugulars at a cost of thousands of dollars. All of these things were to no avail. Other folks have taken DMDs that cost $50 grand per year and offer no hope of a cure. Medical science doesn't have a clue about curing MS, but they can charge you a fortune for something that does little or no good...
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:35 am

hi david, a few questions if i may :)
1. have you got your most recent (no worry how long ago it was) bloodwork panel for the key nutrients of concern to ms patients?
2. have you previously shared nutrient related bloodwork results on the forum, for review?
3. have you been referred to a registered dietitian?
4. when trying nutrient products, what were the symptoms you were looking to improve?
5. which nutritional (not herbal) supplements had you tried?
6. what specific products, forms, doses and serving sizes were involved? devil is often in the details...
7. in each case, was your serum response to the increased intake measured?
8. were there any absorption challenges eg due to things like cofactors, combinations and/or timing of supplement intake?
9. if yes, in the spirit of adaptive managment were any regimen modifications implemented?
10. today, are you confident that your bloodwork for nutrients of concern for patients with ms is a match for healthy control levels as documented in the scientific literature?

regards,
fellow (former) engineering/building science technologist type

ps. perhaps i can interest you in my 'zapper', built by a well-meaning mechanical engineer (nuclear energy) of my acquaintance. :twisted:
https://www.drclarkinfocenter.com/en/te ... is3254.php
(and incidentally, the same family friend who directed my attention to TiMS in the first place...)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby David1949 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:11 am

Jimmylegs
In answer to your questions:
1. I've had blood work done in the past 5 years. Most results were in the normal range. What nutrients are you looking for?
2. no
3. no
4. I have great weakness in the left leg and very poor balance. I can still walk with my cane and foot brace but not very far. I also have trouble with muscle spasms at night. Fixing any of those symptoms would be great. I have PPMS so I don't have relapses.
5. Cod liver oil, Vitamin a, b, c, d, e, magnesium, calcium, potassium, selenium
6. Don't remember
7. Response was not measured.
8. Don't know
9. no
10. no

PS I read Dr. Hulda Clark's book just before she was arrested. Never built the zapper though. Judging by your emoticon I guess it didn't help you. :-)
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:31 pm

ooh info, i like :)
1. excellent.
i look askance at normal results, since there are distinct separate clusters of patients and healthy subjects within normal ranges.
would be good, if available, to have a closer look at
serum vit b12, serum vit d3, also serum magnesium, serum copper and serum zinc pls.
nice to have but not need to have: serum uric acid.
i'm assuming there will be standard evaluations of things like serum ferritin and serum electrolytes such as calcium, potassium etc in the past bloodwork mix as well - those can be good to know too.
2. feel like sharing any now?
3. ok no dietitian to date, assuming you have never completed a three day diet diary to date, would you?
for analytical purposes, these should read more like lists of recipe ingredients than menu items.
4. weakness, balance and spasms all sound like elements worth taking a closer look at nutrient status
5. nice start on the regimen list. if you still have things kicking around in a cupboard, some fine details for each could be informative.
6. do you take any of those currently? here's an example of the kind of info i look for (this is for one of the mag products i use):
magnesium glycinate, by orange naturals, 200mg per serving, serving size 1 powder capsule.
i take this product every time i take any vit d3, and then i take another one (or similar eg mag citrate) well away from the d3
7. tsk tsk. i'm not a fan when research says 'hmm that didn't do anything' but you can't see if the approach they tried was successful at moving subjects' levels out of the 'patients' section of the normal range in question, and into the 'healthy controls' portion of that same normal range.
8. understandable that absorption issues -if any- were unknown, given the absence of monitoring
9 and 10. these are things you may be able to change, if so inclined.

checking any existing bloodwork results you may have on file, for items on the list of nutrients described in item 1 above, will be a good start :)

i've never used the zapper myself, but it's still kicking around the house here
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby David1949 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:46 pm

Jimmylegs
I assume you are doing these things. May I ask how you're doing physically? Also what type of MS do you have and how long have you had it?
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:54 am

hi david

i don't use any gadgets or equipment other than standard fitness or physiotherapy stuff.

i have some permanent limitations. largely sensory. some nerve roots are just dead, no amount of nutrition will bring them back now - i missed that boat.
i'm out of shape at this end of five years on desk work after a knee injury. with physical exertion, am still finding i need plenty of breaks or help if i push myself too hard.

i have had an rrms dx for 12 yrs, symptoms for much longer prior to dx. working with my docs since dx i've investigated, identified and corrected a slew of nutrient issues. when i do essential nutrition right, i get my own personal best case scenario. if i drop the ball, i pay the price!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:50 pm

@david re spasms.. maybe also work on getting your serum magnesium level up to the very top of the normal range, and your intake of healthy magnesium rich foods up to a level that meets your daily requirements. i'll be surprised if a spasm shows its face once that work is accomplished.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby David1949 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:06 pm

Jimmylegs
I like to shoot one duck at a time. But the Desatascador won't arrive for a couple of weeks, So I could try magnesium for a while and see if it helps. Let's say I don't want to go back to the doctor to get to get my serum blood level checked. So how much magnesium should I take?
Dave
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:19 pm

ok here goes. always consider both the amount and the form/source. take enough to meet your needs, emphasize food sources first, then top up with a high quality supplement.

1. amount.
-from food and supplements combined, aim for 7 to 10 mg per kg body weight daily.
so for example for someone 150lbs or 70kg, they need between 490 to 700 mg per day.
choose the higher end of the range for your own weight if highly stressed, highly active, injured or undergoing surgery, or if you consume substances that deplete magnesium such as certain medications eg PPIs, high dose vitamin d3, or alcohol to name a few.
-at a bare minimum (applies to anyone age 4 and up), 420 mg per day.
-no more than 350 mg per day from supplements (i suspect that 350 mg is an outdated number, but can't be certain).

The Requirement of Magnesium by the Normal Adult: Summary and Analysis of Published Data (1964 ffs)
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-a ... 42/4787285

the most recent article to cite the paper above:
Subclinical magnesium deficiency: a principal driver of cardiovascular disease and a public health crisis (2018)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/
('subclinical' means the normal aka reference range is stupid and fails to pick up a problem unless you are very clear on how to interpret 'normal' results).

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... ng.html#p2

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... -2005.html

2. food sources

emphasize healthy magnesium dense foods in diet.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
the top 3 on that list should always be boiled to achieve the nutrient density per serving described.
spinach boil 1 min and drain.
chard boil 3 min and drain.
don't keep or consume the water for either. it's boiled off for a reason (oxalic acid)

3. supplement

mag supplements are by no means created equal. i like magnesium glycinate 200 mg powder capsules.

caution re supplement combinations:
because i happen to be taking supplemental d3 right now, i am very careful to time and balance my magnesium intake properly. my last d3 level was quite low, so i'm taking quite a lot daily for 10 days. (today is day 10). in addition to food, i have to take one 200mg capsule with the d3 in the morning, and then the second 200mg magnesium capsule on its own in the evening. if i skip the evening mag dose, i can feel the morning d3 draining my mag resources and creating side effects.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:25 am

aside/bump - how goes the magnesium trial, @david?
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby David1949 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:35 am

"aside/bump - how goes the magnesium trial, @david?"

I'm taking 400 mg per day
Day 1 was worse. Spasms at night were bad
Days 2 and 3 were more or less normal for me. Spasms about the same as before.
Day 4 spasms were slightly worse.

I seem to be feeling weaker during the day though. Don't know if that's because of magnesium or just the nature of the beast. I'll keep it up it a while longer and see what happens.
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:26 am

hmm unpleasant. i would have expected a better result in less time if magnesium was the sole culprit.
perhaps a cofactor situation.
do you have any fairly recent bloodwork on hand to have a look at your other electrolytes? potassium in particular? do you have any b-complex in the regimen, and if not is any handy? i am also wondering about dehydration as a possibility, and am curious about any prescription meds (for anything not just ms) or other supplements you might be on long term.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby Music » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:36 am

Hi David,

While I don't have spasms much, here is what I do or use for other muscle pains at times. Every day I take 400mg of magnesium bisglycinate, rest my feet on a machine for about 30 - 45 minutes that sends vibrations thru my feet and up my lower legs and the odd time I use a magnesium gel for muscle pain somewhere in my body or if my heels are burning at night. Love the magnesium gel.

Terry
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby David1949 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:56 pm

jimmylegs wrote:am also wondering about dehydration as a possibility, and am curious about any prescription meds (for anything not just ms) or other supplements you might be on long term.


Baclofen 30mg for spasms
alfuzosin 10 mg ( For prostate problems)
Nicotinamide (Vitamin B3) 500 mg
Melatonin 10 mg once in a while to help me sleep

Dehydration could be a problem. I drink about 30 oz of fluids daily. Don't like to drink more because it increases nighttime trips to the bathroom.
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:56 pm

i hear ya re the nighttime deal.

what's motivating the niacinamide supplement, iima? this paper is super old but hints at the potential for b complex issues if loading just one component

IMBALANCE OF VITAMIN B FACTORS
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 8-0003.pdf

"It is becoming increasingly recognized that in the treatment of pellagrins with nicotinic acid it is essential to provide other members of the B complex and to prescribe a liberal and well-balanced
diet. Our experiments would suggest the necessity for adopting a similar procedure for other B factors, and in particular, when B1 therapy is indicated, for supplying the whole B complex instead of the single vitamin."

would you consider a b50 complex and/or an all around high quality multi-vitamin / multi-mineral?

this article suggests b complex may be helpful.

Neurogenic muscle cramps (2015)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 015-7659-x

B6 in particular is known to interact with magnesium. maybe pairing them up (carefully!) will help.
an interesting paragraph on b6 and interactions with other micro and macronutrients:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... teractions
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!
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