Clonidine Diary (for RRMS)

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:28 pm

I haven't processed how this fits in but Type II diabetes is associated with high cortisol and Type I is associated with low cortisol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
Review of evidence that epidemics of type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes/ metabolic syndrome are polar opposite responses to iatrogenic inflammation.
Classen JB.
Source
Classen Immunotherapies, Inc. 3637 Rockdale Road, Manchester, MD 21102, USA. classen@vaccines.net
Abstract
There is an epidemic in children of metabolic syndrome, obesity, type 2 diabetes and other individual diseases that form the components of metabolic syndrome. Poor diet and low exercise can not explain many facets of the epidemic including the onset in children 6 month of age, the protective effect of obesity on the incidence of type 1 diabetes and the epidemic of type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome in grass fed horses. Poor diet and exercise also do not explain the epidemic of type 1 diabetes in children that resembles the epidemic of type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome. Several papers have been published to indicate that the epidemics of type 1 and type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome in children are linked and are polar opposite responses to iatrogenic inflammation. Several lines of research support this. Data from different races indicates that there is an inverse relationship between developing type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes. Races with high risk of developing type 2 diabetes have a decreased risk of developing type 1 diabetes. Data from Italy confirmed an inverse association between obesity and type 1 diabetes. Further studies indicate the inverse relationship between type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes/obesity is due to cortisol production. Data indicates those with low cortisol responses have a predilection for type 1 diabetes and other autoimmune disorders following inflammation, while those with high cortisol/ immune suppressive responses develop type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome/obesity which resembles a Cushingoid state but are spared in the autoimmune disorders. Japanese children produce much more cortisol following immunization than Caucasian children. The later explains why discontinuation of BCG vaccination was associated with a decrease in type 1 diabetes in European children and a decrease in type 2 diabetes in Japanese children. Both the epidemics of type 1 diabetes and metabolic syndrome correlate with an increase in immunization. Finally, there is a strong mechanism data that macrophage produced interleukin 1, tumor necrosis factor and interleukin 6, which are released following inflammation, causing destruction of insulin secreting islet cells and increase cortisol release, and thus have the ability to cause both type 1 and type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome (which resembles a Cushingoid state). The propensity to develop type 1 diabetes or type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome depends on the propensity to release of cortisol which correlates with race.
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:46 pm

A couple of days ago, I decided to try some stretches used to treat thoracic outlet syndrome (TOS) thinking it might be connected to the numbness that developed in my right arm during CAP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4aXRj0uIj4

Well, the arm numbness is still there but doing the stretches (painful!) almost instantly improved sensation in my hands. Last night, I freaked out because with my left hand I could feel goosebumps on my skin for the first time in years...what is that?! I could feel wetness and temperature too. Sensation not as good this morning. I think it could take some time to heal and it might not heal in my right hand as it was always worse. All this time I thought a lesion was causing the numbness and now I find it might just be a compressed nerve?!

So, that got me thinking. When I started taking clonidine, my neck stopped feeling sore and tight overnight. Neck pain is associated with TOS. My shoulders used to be really tight too which is also associated with TOS. My hands also stopped getting super buzzy with activity (which causes aldo/cortisol release). Then I thought of this...
general-discussion-f1/topic21331-15.html 4th and 5th posts
Could some of our sensory issues be caused by aldosterone induced muscle tightness (suspected but not proven) compressing nerves?
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Anonymoose wrote:I haven't processed how this fits in but Type II diabetes is associated with high cortisol and Type I is associated with low cortisol.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22934546
Review of evidence that epidemics of type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes/ metabolic syndrome are polar opposite responses to iatrogenic inflammation.
Classen JB.
Source
Classen Immunotherapies, Inc. 3637 Rockdale Road, Manchester, MD 21102, USA. classen@vaccines.net
Abstract
There is an epidemic in children of metabolic syndrome, obesity, type 2 diabetes and other individual diseases that form the components of metabolic syndrome. Poor diet and low exercise can not explain many facets of the epidemic including the onset in children 6 month of age, the protective effect of obesity on the incidence of type 1 diabetes and the epidemic of type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome in grass fed horses. Poor diet and exercise also do not explain the epidemic of type 1 diabetes in children that resembles the epidemic of type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome. Several papers have been published to indicate that the epidemics of type 1 and type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome in children are linked and are polar opposite responses to iatrogenic inflammation. Several lines of research support this. Data from different races indicates that there is an inverse relationship between developing type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes. Races with high risk of developing type 2 diabetes have a decreased risk of developing type 1 diabetes. Data from Italy confirmed an inverse association between obesity and type 1 diabetes. Further studies indicate the inverse relationship between type 1 diabetes and type 2 diabetes/obesity is due to cortisol production. Data indicates those with low cortisol responses have a predilection for type 1 diabetes and other autoimmune disorders following inflammation, while those with high cortisol/ immune suppressive responses develop type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome/obesity which resembles a Cushingoid state but are spared in the autoimmune disorders. Japanese children produce much more cortisol following immunization than Caucasian children. The later explains why discontinuation of BCG vaccination was associated with a decrease in type 1 diabetes in European children and a decrease in type 2 diabetes in Japanese children. Both the epidemics of type 1 diabetes and metabolic syndrome correlate with an increase in immunization. Finally, there is a strong mechanism data that macrophage produced interleukin 1, tumor necrosis factor and interleukin 6, which are released following inflammation, causing destruction of insulin secreting islet cells and increase cortisol release, and thus have the ability to cause both type 1 and type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome (which resembles a Cushingoid state). The propensity to develop type 1 diabetes or type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome depends on the propensity to release of cortisol which correlates with race.


As a follow-up to the previous article, I would like to add this information about BCG vaccination:
Dr. Denise Faustman, Director of the Immunobiology Laboratory in Boston, seems to have found a way to reverse type I diabetes with repeated BCG vaccinations . In the following interview she is talking about using multiple BCG vaccines:

http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/192352 ... t-diabetes

Here is a Bloomberg article with more details:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-0 ... or-tb.html

I know that this vaccine (for tuberculosis) is required for school-age children in the UK (I believe it contributes to the prevalence of MS there.).
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
 
Posts: 2247
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:00 pm

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:47 am

That's interesting. The vaccine isn't what they are crediting with reversal of diabetes or multiple sclerosis. It's the TNF. Which...drum roll please...inhibits aldosterone production!

http://endo.endojournals.org/content/125/6/3084.short
Tumor Necrosis Factor and Interleukin-1 Are Potent Inhibitors of Angiotensin-II-Induced Aldosterone Synthesis*
R. NATARAJAN,
S. PLOSZAJ†,
R. HORTON and
J. NADLER‡
- Author Affiliations
Section of Endocrinology, University of Southern California-Los Angeles County Medical Center Los Angeles, California 90033
Address requests for reprints to: Rama Natarajan, Ph.D., Section of Endocrinology, University of Southern California Medical Center, Room 18632, 2025 Zonal Avenue, Los Angeles, California 90033.

Abstract

Cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF) and interleukin-1 (IL-1), mediate many inflammatory and cellular responses. However, the effects of TNF and IL-1 on basal and angiotensin-II (All)-stimulated aldosterone synthesis are not known. We studied the effect of recombinant and purified TNF and IL-1 on basal as well as All-, ACTH-, and K+-induced aldosterone synthesis in isolated rat adrenal glomerulosa cells. Since we have previously shown that All action is mediated by activation of the 12-lipoxygenase (12LO) pathway of arachidonic acid, we also evaluated the effects of these cytokines on the 12LO product 12-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid (12HETE) using a validated RIA technique. TNF at 2.5 and 5.0 ng/ml produced a dose-dependent inhibition of All-induced aldosterone synthesis [All, 39.0 ± 3.3 ng/106 cells-h; All plus TNF (5.0 ng/ml), 14.3 ± 1.6; P < 0.001 vs. All; All plus TNF (2.5 ng/ml), 24.7 ± 3.2; P < 0.01 vs. All]. Similarly, TNF at 5.0 ng/ml also attenuated the stimulatory effect of ACTH (10−9 M). However, K+- induced aldosterone synthesis was not altered. TNF also did not alter basal aldosterone levels. All, as previously shown, stimulates 12HETE synthesis (basal, 608 ± 114 pg/105 cells-h; versus All, 1268 ± 197; P < 0.02). TNF at concentrations of 1.0–5.0 ng/ml produced a dose-dependent inhibition of All stimulatory action on 12HETE synthesis [All plus TNF (1.0 ng/ml), 650 ± 26 pg, P < 0.03 vs. All; All plus TNF (5.0 ng/ml), 390 ± 46; P < 0.01 vs. All plus TNF (1.0 ng/ml)]. In addition, 12HETE at 10−8 M completely restored the effects of All during blockage by TNF. Purified human IL-1 (75% β, 25% α) as well as recombinant human IL-1β at concentrations as low as 50 pg/ml inhibited All-induced aldosterone synthesis. IL-1β did not alter ACTHor K+-induced aldosterone synthesis and, in fact, had a tendency to potentiate ACTH effects. These results suggest that the cytokines TNF and IL-1 are potent inhibitors, particularly of All action in the adrenal glomerulosa cell. Therefore, local or systemically produced TNF or IL-1 may be important negative modulators of aldosterone synthesis.
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:50 am

I just finished paying bills. It was an interesting experience as my 10 keying was all screwed up because my right hand is coming back too. It doesn't respond the way it did when it was severely wonked up. I don't know if it's from the clonidine or the TOS stretches or both but I am getting both of my hands back! :-D
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby DougL » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:18 pm

Anonymoose wrote: I don't know if it's from the clonidine or the TOS stretches or both but I am getting both of my hands back! :-D

yaay yaay yaaay. love to hear good news.
User avatar
DougL
Family Elder
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:48 pm

Thanks for the "yays" Doug. :)

Clonidine update:

I gave up a pretty heavy caffeine addiction over last weekend and noticed some buzzing coming back in my hands. I figured the caffeine was enhancing the effect of the clonidine so without all that caffeine, it was less effective. My neurologist increased my dose from .1mg weekly patch to .2mg weekly patch. I put the .2mg patch on this am and within an hour my hands stopped buzzing. Amazing. I am relieved to know the first three weeks of improvements weren't just a fluke...actually I'm only partially relieved...I'll feel more sure about it after a few days.

Only new thing I've noticed is the stubborn muffin top that joined me soon after MS did is shrinking. Blasted cortisol.
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:28 am

I've had nonstop tinnitus in both ears forever. Its not related to allergies, colds, or fluid buildup. Left ear suddenly felt cool and tickley, like it had water in it and the tinnitus stopped. Right ear still ringing away. That quiet left ear is really weird. I hope the right ear stops too because now that its imbalanced, it's harder to ignore. While I had an inkling about how clonidine might affect my neck tension, I haven't a clue as to how it might be making my tinnitus go away.

Improvements holding. I did have a bit of a headache and was sleepy the day I upped the dose just like when I started clonidine. Those side effects wore off quickly. Fingertips are still mostly oblivious to temperature.
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby PointsNorth » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:30 pm

@moose was there a reason you elected to go with the patch vs. pill form. A weekly patch at .1 or .2 as a weekly patch vs. .1/.2 daily dose. I will approach my doc(s) about trying a course of clon.

I just bought some tonic water (quinine) for spasticity. Not adding any gin (until maybe summer). :wink:
Albany 2010. Brooklyn 2011
Calcitriol+D3 2013-
Hurry up and wait.
PointsNorth
Family Elder
 
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: LeftCoast Canada

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:02 pm

PointsNorth wrote:@moose was there a reason you elected to go with the patch vs. pill form. A weekly patch at .1 or .2 as a weekly patch vs. .1/.2 daily dose. I will approach my doc(s) about trying a course of clon.

I just bought some tonic water (quinine) for spasticity. Not adding any gin (until maybe summer). :wink:


I chose the patch because I was just coming off my 3.5 month stint with CAP...around 50 pills a day including supplements and moppers. For the moment, I have lost my appetite for pills, capsules, and the resulting odd flavored burps. The more rational explanation is that both my neurologist and I liked the steady dosing the patch offers.

I would start with the .1mg patch with the plan to work your way up to optimal dosage. I've noticed I can mess with the strength of the clonidine by indulging in caffeinated beverages. If it makes the clonidine more effective, you probably want to up your dose. I was completely insensitive to caffeine before the patch and now it keeps me up at night so don't overdo the caffeine! I think I'm going to work my way up to the standard .3-.4mg dose just to see if I can't get even more improvement. Greedy I am.

About that gin...be careful. I tried a glass of wine and the effect was stronger and different. I couldn't even drink half a glass. 8O
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:45 pm

Yesterday morning I read that clonidine can cause potassium deficiency (via increased urinary output...which I haven't noticed). This works against my goal to get my na/k back in balance. So, I decided to try a banana. I've been avoiding them since I found that potassium can trigger aldosterone release. Within a couple of hours, I was surprised to find the weird sensations I've been feeling on the skin of my calves had vanished...but I started to feel mild twinges of heat/tension in my neck. Arg. One symptom goes away, another returns. The K must have woken my sleeping aldosterone.

Friday is fresh clonidine patch day. I've noticed they start to wear off on Wednesday, 5 days old. I thought I'd try another bigger potassium burst today on my full power patch. For breakfast, meusli with raisins and half a banana and a cup of fresh squeezed orange juice (4 oranges...citrus intake is extremely rare for me)...about 1500mg of potassium. Legs are good. Neck is a tiny, tiny, bit tweaked. Energy through the roof. All other old news improvements holding strong.

I think I'll stick with the potassium loading for a while...might try to get my neurologist to prescribe a very small dose of eplerenone to help balance things but I don't think he'll want to do that. We'll see.

Oh...and before I started experimenting with K, I had a (rare for me in recent years) major stress event (pounding heart, full body shakes, about 30 minutes of buzzing, and a mostly sleepless night) and I didn't relapse! YAY for clonidine and BOOO to nasty, crazy people. Just to clarify, I enjoy and relate very well to nice, crazy people. :)
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:06 am

Decreased dose back to .1mg yesterday. My fingers were shriveling and not rehydrating from k loading...guessing na was getting too low. Fingers got a bit better over night. I haven't noticed any loss of improvements yet. The dose change did cause a rebound effect. I got very sleepy about 2 hours after I switched to lower dose and had a few racing heart moments during the night. I also woke up at 2:30am, wide awake. I was able to get back to sleep after an hour or so. I was sorer in the morning than I have been since starting clonidine but it wasn't muscle tension or anything MSy...it was a bruised feeling. Clonidine must have some pain blocking effects??

Since I haven't lost improvements yet and I didn't start getting dehydrated fingers until 2 1/2 weeks after upping my dose, I'm wondering if my hippocampus hasn't resensitized and my hpa axis hasn't been corrected. Too early to say and who knows if I could ever be sure of it anyway??

The experiment continues...
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:50 am

Went to bed last night convinced I had sent myself into relapse with the dose reduction. My legs started aching and buzzing badly...and it crawled up from my ankles to my thighs. My hands were buzzing too. Yikes! Thankfully, this morning everything is much better, though still off. I am definitely not in relapse. Shwew!

I am convinced that the clonidine is in some way acting on primary elements of MS. Since it affects much more than cortisol and aldosterone, it's hard to say how it is doing so. It's odd that in the midst of all of this I still have improved hand sensation and relaxed muscles. Hopefully I'll just have to wait out the adjustment period and things will get back on track...hopefully.:confused:

Bright side...my fingers have filled out more and I am soon to feel the warmth of the sun on my skin. Maybe some good ol' vitamin D will speed things along. :)
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby ljelome » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:27 pm

Dear anonymoose,

Hi! i'm a newbie. I'm interested in your topic about clonidine. May i know what is clonidine ? Is it one of the drugs to improve MS symptoms ? What does it for ? What is its active ingredient ?

I'm seeking for alternative medications to improve my symptoms.

Thank u for your explanation.
Warm regards,
Linda

|For the joy of the Lord is your strength | A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones| God always leads us to where we need to be, not where we want to be|
ljelome
Family Elder
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:46 pm
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re: Clonidine Diary

Postby Anonymoose » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:24 am

ljelome wrote:Dear anonymoose,

Hi! i'm a newbie. I'm interested in your topic about clonidine. May i know what is clonidine ? Is it one of the drugs to improve MS symptoms ? What does it for ? What is its active ingredient ?

I'm seeking for alternative medications to improve my symptoms.

Thank u for your explanation.


Hi,
Clonidine is an anti-hypertensive drug that has many alternative uses...including use for treatment of ADHD in children, sleep issues, immune suppression and pain management post-surgery, drug addiction withdrawal etc. It is NOT used for treatment of MS. My neurologist prescribes it for me not because he thinks it will work but because he's willing to let me experiment as long as the experiments are relatively harmless. I believe clonidine is the active ingredient. As an a2 adrenergic agonist it has many effects but I am using it for its ability to reduce cortisol and aldosterone secretion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonidine
Good luck in your search. :)
Anonymoose
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

PreviousNext

Return to Regimens

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Contact us | Terms of Service