Antibiotics post a risk for increased lung infections?

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

Antibiotics post a risk for increased lung infections?

Postby MacKintosh » Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:59 pm

Posted on ThisIsMS' articles page is the following: "Recent interest in antibiotics as a potential treatment for MS have brought this class of therapeutics into our sphere of interest. A new study shows that acne sufferers, a group that often uses long-term antibiotics of the tetracycline family have an elevated risk for developing upper respiratory tract infections.
More specifically, for patients using topical or internal antibiotics for longer than six weeks, the risk for an infection was two times higher than for non-antibiotic controls. This is relevant for MS'ers using antibiotics as it shows the potential risks of long-term use of the drugs, particularly with respect to giving rise to antibiotic-resistant strains whose activity is theorized to pave the way for other opportunistic viral infections, such as influenza".
____________________________________________________________

Those of us successfully on antibiotic therapy would have a few rebuttals to this vague commentary. First of all, we don't ever use just one antibiotic, which is how resistance would develop over extended use. We use two and three antibiotics which work synergistically (it's late, pardon me if that's a misspelling) together. We also have found, amazingly, since so many of us have a common history of chronic sinus and lung infections, that, as a whole, we have never been so illness-free as we are on the abx therapy.

(The study cited does not address the fact that children/teens, who they are discussing as antibiotics users primarily for acne, are also notoriously lax in taking the medication regularly and this would also aid in the build-up of resistance to the drugs.)
Last edited by MacKintosh on Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Add to this

Postby Jimk » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:16 am

Add to this that those using a combination antibiotic protocol (CAP), at least on the CPn Help website, describe a big reduction in recurrent infections while on the protocol, and the use of high dose zithromycin reducing asthma and the like which you can read on http://www.asthmastory.com/ and I would not worry about this too much.

In the Chlamydia pnemoniae research you see study after study linking, for example, Cpn to heart disease. Then you see studies which are taken as the final arbiter's of the issue which used a single antibiotic (monotherapy) to treat or prevent heart disease with no significant result. From this it is concluded that treating Cpn is not effective for heart disease, let's look elsewhere (you find the same thing in MS). But... the studies clearly don't understand the persistence of the organism in multiple phases, and not one of them uses a CAP in determining prevention or treatment effect.

The same with this simple and highly simplistic study of tetracycline use and infection rates. Makes for a nice, quick and dirty publication to aid someone's academic career, but doesn't ask any really meaningful questions, and like many clinical studies, is done in ignorance of the bacteriology involved.
On Wheldon/Stratton protocal since December '04 for non-MS Cpn: CFS/FMS
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Postby ljm » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:21 am

Funny coincidence that this issue should arise today. I am on ABXs, and althought my last post under regimes indicated that I had appeared to have reduction in flu episodes, I have picked up something pretty vile and am coughing up a lot of crap. If it continues I'll need to see a GP and I'm wondering what the advice will be when I admit to taking all the cyclines over the past year. I hope I don't regret it.

Also, I have to say, even though I am taking ABX, I think some of the posts on the subject are a bit over the top. I think the addition of rather sarcastic "disclaimers" is deroding the site's standard for open and respectful debate and discussion. I'm kind of hoping it goes away.
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Postby MacKintosh » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:41 am

LJM - I'm kind of hoping it goes away, too. So let's drop it and maybe it can. :D

Now, back to the subject. Sorry to hear you've gotten sick and I hope you're better soon. Sick on top of MS is just plain miserable. Antibiotic therapy for MS has not been billed as something that surely would preclude subsequent illnesses, but it's been noted by those on the protocol for long periods that they've experienced far less in the way of colds and flus, as a whole. I don't think any of us is going to dodge the bullet forever, but reducing the occurrence of colds/flus also has the side benefit of reducing the exacerbations so many experience along with those colds/flus.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:15 pm

Well, my experience is that I have been taking combined antibiotics now for one year full-time and two and a half years intermittently and in that time I have had one cold which lasted all of two days. Before that I would spend a lot of the winter coughing and spluttering, so I guess that MacKintosh has the right idea about teenage behaviour patterns.

Sooner or later everyone is going to come down with a virus, though, that's the way of the world. Lizz, I hope you soon feel better!

Sarah :wink:
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby ljm » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:46 pm

MacIntosh/Anecdote, thanks for your thoughts, its lousy being sick, but my bigger concern is what the heck I'll be able to take if I need (more) antibiotics. I'll find out I guess.
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Postby MacKintosh » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:36 pm

ljm - I, too, was worried about that when I developed some evil spider bites on my neck, below the ear, making life, swallowing and the gland there, quite painful. My fear was whether I could take whatever appropriate antibiotics I might need in addition to the protocol, as I was not willing to deviate from the protocol at any cost. I was reassured by two doctors and two nurses that I could certainly add a couple of other antibiotics to the mix, if need be, once the pharmacy cleared them for interactions. By the time I got to that point, I was two days into the worst of the reactions, the gland had reached the pinnacle of its swollen state and I toughed it out the last few days with ibuprofen.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:40 pm

And you must remember that it might just be a virus so antibiotics would not be appropriate. However, I have heard David when he is on call prescribing up to four antibiotics to be taken for various purposes for someone in a hospital bed, so no worries there.

Sarah :wink:
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby LisaBee » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:15 pm

FYI - This might be a bit off-topic (or not) but BBC had an article on their website on using antibiotics to treat asthma.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4899602.stm

The antibiotic of interest is telithromycin. Very interestingly, the article mentioned that many of the subjects in the study had Cpn and Mycoplasma pneumoniae infections (or were positive for them, I'd have to go back to the original article to check. I dd not know there was an association between Cpn and asthma....

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Postby MacKintosh » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:33 pm

LisaBee - Published research shows chlamydia pneumoniae is associated with walking pneumonia, asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, heart disease, inflammatory bowel disease, fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis and the list goes on. As I recall, Sarah had adult onset asthma after a bad bout of reinfection. Ask her how it resolved.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:18 am

Good morning to you both! Yes, I developed adult onset asthma just as my MS was starting to go progressive, but after starting the anti CPn treatment it just went away. I haven't used an inhaler now for more than a couple of years. There does seem to be a connection between the two, which doesn't mean, of course, that asthma is caused by CPn in every case, but just that people with a chronic infection are very prone to both sinus problems and/or asthma. You will find something about it in my husband's web-pages: just type "David Wheldon" into google and as long as you don't miss out the "H" you will find it straight away.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:36 pm

HI LIsabee
I'd like to reiterate and add that the bulk of the research on chlamydia pneumoniae is in other fields like cardiovascular issues and asthma. It's sketchier in the MS field far from proven.

The link is so strong with asthma that there have been many trials treating people long term. http://www.asthmastory.com/ has the gripping story of a guy who died on his front porch of an asthma attack but was revived via paramedics and who was later completely cured of his obviously life threatening and unstable asthma via antibiotics. I have MS RA and asthma as well. For me personally it's a very good idea to try this before going to potent immunsuppressives. I'm SPMS. IT is unproven of course in the MS field.

In fact it is not "proven" in asthma yet either but it is well supported and considered a matter of time. The question now is how to treat which abx and for how long. Research is just now trying to solve that for the asthma patient. It appears it will need to be long term treatment of multiple abx as the CPn germs have various lifephases they live in the body in.
Here's a technical but good paper on CPn. It has nothing whatever to do with MS just the bacteria itself... This is the kind of thing an interested person must study.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagere ... dex=3#page
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Postby Katman » Fri May 05, 2006 8:17 am

Better to beat dead horses than live ones, so I will speak my piece too. Last winter (not many days past) a cold/flu bacterium/virus swept the country. I was not the only one affected - my husband, a pediatrician, got it, I got it, about half the people in our town got it and most ot the children who are patients of Dr R, who is also on the protocol for high blood pressure. (An aside - - his bp has dropped enough to enable him to reduce one of his 3 bp meds by half) We are just getting over the cough this "cold" left us with and we hear coughing whereever we go, and assuredly all these people are not on muliple, long- term abx.

Rica
2010 5 years 4 months Now on Amoxicillin, Doxy, Rifampin, Azith, and caffeine in addition to  flagyl. 90% normal good days-50% normal bad days. That is a good thing.
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Postby MacKintosh » Fri May 05, 2006 12:57 pm

Rica - I haven't been sick once since starting abx seven months ago and I have a steady history of twice-yearly lung infections and walking pneumonia. I just realized it's been about 14 months since I was sick with anything, even a cold. It's great!

On the asthma front, I'll start a new thread when it comes to fruition, but a friend of mine has had asthma his entire adult life and has read up on abx due to my situation. He has decided to try abx for his asthma, after reading so many positive studies. I'll post on his progress once he gets going. He has that whole bundle of problems: asthma, allergies, sinus infections. Knocking back even SOME of it with abx protocol would be a relief to him and his family.
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Please forgive my interjection

Postby lyndacarol » Sat May 06, 2006 9:06 am

Mac--As I read your post, I am struck by the common element in your friend with asthma, allergies, sinus infections--inflammation! (You know I think this fits with my suspicions of inflammation/insulin.)

Your comment of
Knocking back even SOME of it with abx protocol would be a relief to him and his family.
makes sense against sinus infections. It might also make sense to work on the allergies problems, too. Not only do doctors have traditional allergy medicine and shots, I have heard of success with IgE. Lots to discuss with a doctor. I have no clue what one does for asthma.

With my current belief, anything to reduce inflammation would be "a good thing" (as Martha says!).

Please forgive my interjection; I know I see everything from one perspective. Like everyone else, I only want to get us to some answers; my thought is that maybe I can contribute in some way, maybe write a word that will make the "lightbulb" go off in somebody's head!
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