Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:27 pm

Hi,

When my dogs have not done as they are told, run off and feasted on some truly disgusting garbage and pretended they can climb trees, they come back with stupids grins on their faces and with tails wagging say "I'm all yours".

This is what the label says-
Each tablet contains:
Magnesium amino acid chelate
Magnesium diglycinate 500mg
Equiv.elemental Magnesium 50mg
Magnesium amino acid chelate 750mg
Equiv.elemental magnesium 150mg
Zinc sulphate monohydrate 19mg
Equiv. elemental zinc 7mg
Pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B6) 16.6mg
Chromic Chloride 1mg
Equiv. elemental Chromium 200 micrograms
Selenomethionine 33 microgram
Equiv. elemental Selenium 13 microgram

Directions for use for a range of symptoms (stress, cramps, PMS, cellular energy) was 1x3 times a day
If it was just for supplementation take 1 per day

I did take it up three on the 20th and felt OK. (Morning Noon at Evening) On the 21st I took the third one about the same time as I took my Baclofen so that may be the step too far.
Yesterday, I waited till evening when I felt OK and took one but no Baclofen. This morning, on rising, I took another. My blood pressure is 126/74 with a pulse of 68. From what I read, a healthy number is systolic under 120 and diastolic under 80 so its getting closer.
In the whole time I have been sick I hardly ever had my blood pressure taken by a doctor except when I found myself in hospital. Even then it was a secret and I wasn't supposed to know.
The whole purpose of Baclofen is to control calcium's effect on muscles by slowing the shift of potassium out of the cell. When I started on Baclofen my diastolic pressure dropped from 92-94 to 82ish but never lower. This move is amazing by comparison.
I must say I don't feel fantastic when the pressure is dropping. It's better when its at a level, whatever it is except when it is so high the arrhythmia is playing up.
Regards,
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby NHE » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:26 pm

About two years ago I tried taking high dose magnesium, i.e., 800 mg/day, in the hopes of achieving vasodilation. I had to stop after a week as it made my walking much worse due to increased weakness.

natural-approach-f27/topic23965.html
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:33 pm

oh dear, puppies!

ok so 200mg elemental mag per pill, and taken according to package directions (one being maintenance and three being therapeutic) looks good except, as you say, when taking a pharma product that also works to at least one similar end. (the nice thing about mag as an alternative is that it can jump in on a few hundred other important processes as well :) )

anyway if it all went south only when you took mag and baclofen simultaneously, then may as well just avoid that particular scenario and see how you go.

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmace ... raphs-%20L)/LIORESAL.html
"Caution should be exercised when administering baclofen and magnesium sulfate (or other neuromuscular blocking agents), since a synergistic effect may theoretically occur."

http://www.drugs.com/answers/if-taking- ... 38122.html
"It should be fine to take baclofen and magnesium citrate together. There are no known interactions between these medicines. However, it does not mean that no interactions exist. It would be best to separate the doses by at least 2 hours."

sounds like it could be worth reporting the interaction, perhaps here:
https://www.tga.gov.au/reporting-problems-0

note that since three per day is for therapeutic use only, you shouldn't need that much forever. that said it took me years to build up to the point where i did not need to supplement mag daily. i'm sure you'll be able to fine tune something that works. i see a new post by NHE - to that i would say 800mg/d definitely sounds excessive, especially given some of the newer forms. for myself, i'll notice weakness in leg muscles if i add more than 100mg supplemental mag per day.

nice work on the BP :) "197/110 but mostly it was 160ish/90plus" to 126/74 and counting.. you're almost down into my neck of the woods! (if i have a problem it's a tendency to low bp though!)

i hear you re not feeling good when it's dropping. i get mildy dizzy, more postural hypotension - in my case it generally means i'm dehydrated / low blood volume.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:49 pm

Hi,

Thanks and "woof", JL.

I think I'll just be a mag user for a little while and then see when everything stabilises if I need baclofen.

NHE, when I was hunting around yesterday I found a note that says that Baclofen makes your muscles weak. Maybe it does depending on the dose but it could also be that it exposes the weakness rather than causes it. It seems to me that whether its Baclofen or Magnesium what we are really doing is influencing Calcium. It is calcium that signals the striated strips of protein that make up skeletal and cardiac muscles bind to each other so contraction occurs and ATP that signals them to release so muscles relax. Maybe your muscle weakness was more to do with the magnesium impacting the calcium and exposing the weakness that has already developed. I certainly didn't enjoy the rapid fall in my blood pressure (better now though).

As my general condition has improved I have learned when I do Pilates that some muscles are tight and some are weak. I can strengthen weak muscles if I can unlock the tight ones. (possibly magnesium, definitely Botox, definitely make more ATP)

The magnesium may not cause weakness itself, rather expose the imbalances.

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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:13 pm

and magnesium brings the ATP to the muscle relaxation party. package deal - calcium contracts, mag-atp releases. i would think that baclofen, acting as a muscle relaxant, could cause directly related weakness when a user decided they needed their muscles to contract. i'll be interested to hear developments re future baclofen use (or not).
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:09 am

Hi NHE,

I get what you mean when you talked about leg weakness. The thing I really noticed today when I went to Pilates was how much weaker I was. The other thing I noticed and others did as well was how much freer I was. I think the release from the calcium just exposes the weak muscles. I could recruit muscles I knew I hadn't been using but they are definitely weaker. I move differently. As I have been juiced twice with Botox I can recognise the combination of freedom and weakness. It should be possible to exercise through that (for me anyway). I'm a little grumpy its Christmas as I could be there but its shut till 4th Jan!

Regards,
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:58 am

Hi,

Now I am confused. It's the evening of the fourth day since I just used the magnesium and left the baclofen out. My systolic reading is now 152 whereas in the last few days it has ranged between a low of 124 and a high of 135. The diastolic is now 88 and it was ranging between 69 and 77. Perhaps the baclofen is still needed.
I'll measure it tomorrow and if it is still high by bedtime I will reintroduce Baclofen instead of the last magnesium and see what happens.

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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:35 pm

hi how many mgs elemental mag per day from the supplement, and beyond that how have things been with food, drink, and any other meds or supplements in the mix?

aside: was shopping for fish today and looking for one with a reasonable looking third party sustainability cert on it. couldn't find one on my usual salmon but did on halibut (surprise!) so went with that as it is a great source of dietary mag (170mg per half fillet serving!).

my only caution re halibut is that the P to Mg ratio (~2.6 per nutritiondata http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/4063/2) is higher than recommended daily intake ratio for these (~1.6 P:Mg ratio per this EU source http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/150728)

as usual, it's a matter of balancing things out - useful food ratio tool here: http://www.healthaliciousness.com/nutri ... g-tool.php

that said, no sense demonizing phosphorus - we still need more each day than we do mag

Dietary Phosphorus and Blood Pressure
International Study of Macro- and Micro-Nutrients and Blood Pressure
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/51/3/669.full.pdf
"All Participants (n4680) Associations of phosphorus with BP were all inverse. Estimates ranged from 1.13 to 2.31 mm Hg for systolic pressure and 0.59 to 1.47 mm Hg for diastolic pressure per 232 mg/1000 kcal (2 SD) of phosphorus intake (Table 1). There was heterogeneity between countries in size or direction of the phosphorus-BP regression coefficients: for People’s Republic of China, United Kingdom, and United States, all 14 of the associations were inverse"

that said, usually more likely that people will have more than enough phosphorus in the mix... how much is too much?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... processing
"...Some foods often containing significant amounts of added phosphates include lunch meats, ham, sausages, canned fish, baked goods (including baked cookies and bars), baking mixes (like cake and pancake mix), yogurts, cheeses, and soft drinks. Frozen patties, nuggets, and strips made from breaded chicken and other meats can also contain significant amounts of these additives. In the U.S., persons relying on processed foods similar to the list of foods above may obtain over half of their daily phosphorus intake from these additives.

Soft drinks (meaning carbonated cola-type beverages) are processed beverages of special concern in terms of phosphorus because many contain added phosphoric acid in amounts of 400-600 milligrams per can or bottle. (While phosphates are classified as salts of phosphoric acid in technical chemical terms, these two terms are used interchangeably in most practical discussions of phosphorus-based food additives.) As you can see, the amount of phosphoric acid in a single soda can easily exceed over half of the daily requirement for phosphorus, and persons consuming several such sodas each day would exceed the daily requirement from the sodas alone. As described earlier, the significance of routine intake of phosphorus additives is not entirely clear in current research studies. While we would expect to see great imbalances in calcium-to-phosphorus ratio affecting bone health and the health of other body systems, research findings in this area are somewhat mixed and do not lend themselves to simple conclusions. ..."

so, with all that said, does it look like it could be worth assessing your dietary P:Mg balance?
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:56 pm

Hi JL,

I'm sure diet has a bit to do with. I also wonder about the other things I take. Over Christmas I ran out of Valtrex, Curcumin and my probiotic. I couldn't go to my juice place to get my mix of beetroot, carrot, ginger and kale (really started to miss it). I went to my son's girlfriends birthday party and had a couple of glasses of red wine on boxing day. There wasn't much other partying for me as most of my family were away for Christmas. Yesterday, I ran out of the pomegranate juice extract as well. Good planning on my part!
Today the BP is back to 135/75 and a pulse of 76. It could be missing the juice is a part of it. I will just stay with magnesium again and hold off on the Baclofen. Interesting but damn annoying as well.
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:37 pm

Hi Again,

I should also note that my coffee shop was closed for three days so I missed 2 cups of black coffee with newspapers. With the papers, I read but I don't inhale.

The other interesting thing was four days of weak muscles. I think, if the magnesium does help, it is what you should expect. I do have 200ml of botox across 6 shots in my left leg so that should be a contributing factor but my whole body feels different this time.

I think the weakness arises because I have less spasticity. We get so used to balancing on tight muscles to fake looking normal that we forget that not every muscle is being used or is even tight. When the muscles relax the others can be part of the movement but they are weak from disuse. It takes a few days for them to "power" up. They need to be reminded they have a job to do. If I had not had a prior experience of botox I would not have understood this.

Regards,
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:09 pm

Hi,

It must be the beetroot juice that was missing. I'm back to 126/78 with a pulse of 81 after taking the dogs for a walk (one of them deserves to be curried) for an hour on a warm day.

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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:44 am

Hi,

It's grumpy me again. It's 10.30pm and I have shot back up to 148/85 with a pulse of 70 . There's no arrhythmia and I feel fine. It's just the numbers.

I was cruising along with better numbers during the day. I haven't had my last magnesium of the day and it's now 10 hours since I had the beetroot juice.
My guess is the beetroot helps the systolic number because it activates the nitrite/nitrate pathway and I vasodilate better and the magnesium modulates the calcium so my heart relaxes more between beats so the diastolic is lower. Looking for wise heads to point me in the right direction here.
I must say that, generally, I am a lot less tight than usual.

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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:06 am

hey there, sorry to hear things are still a bit all over the place :P

i just happened to be checking food sources of phosphorus since i'm not a huge consumer of things processed, canned pop, &c. so, thought i would share this list of healthy sources in case you were interested in exploring that angle
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

interesting to note that beets, carrots and kale (in that order) also appear on this healthy phosphorus list :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby Scott1 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:00 pm

Hi,

I'm not a junk food eater either.

I'm still 141/80 with a pulse of 64 at 7am. It will be interesting to see what happens when I reintroduce the beet/carrot/ginger/kale.

It would be brilliant if I can get back to the lower numbers.

Regards,
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Re: Beyond Avonex and Valtrex

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:07 pm

that would be good news :) from the healthy phosphorus foods chart, can you estimate how many mgs of phosphorus a typical beet/carrot/kale/ginger beverage would provide to you? i am also curious which of the other phosphorus foods you would say make it into the daily rotation. not to say you eat the one thing every day, but if you picked around 5 things, you could say you ate at least one of them daily? (with and without the beet things?). just curious :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 9927
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

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