Need supplement help/ suggestions !

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Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:36 am

Hello from Norway!

Im newly diagnosed ( 1 year) and Im trying to recover from my attack last year.
Iv been reading a lot on this forum and I understand that supplements are essential- so I need some advice on what to take , how much and where I can order it online. I take 5000 vuitamin D daily and I dont take any MS meds.
I had some bloodwork done:

Ferritin 17
B 12 436
Magnesium 0.78
Vitamin D 123
serum zinc- 12

Any help / advice highly appreciated :lol:
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:52 am

hi and welcome to the forum - great job on getting these numbers! in the meantime, can you specify the units of measurement used for all your tests?
have you read the various level targets? if not, your d3 level is great - but, magnesium and zinc need to match :)
you basically have a long way to go on zinc, magnesium, and ferritin too.
b12 you could be ok depending on the units (but I go for 500 regardless). at least with that one you're pretty close.
I have to work now, but will get back to you this evening.
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:21 am

Thank you JL for your reply- Im in good hands now :-D

units of measurement

Ferritin- µg/L
Vitamin D- nmol/L
b12- pmol/L
Magnesium- mmol/L1
serum zinc-µmol/L

I`v always had troble with ferritin level- I take duroferon supplement but my level never goes up- I really dont understand why. Im the person who gets very affected by my low ferritin level (fatigue, headache, when I work out rapid hearbeat etc)

Iv looked at the levels but I know that some levels are ok to be "way up there" for example vitamin D...

Talk to you later , and thank again! :lol:
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby THX1138 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:50 am

Thank you JL for your reply- Im in good hands now :-D


Yes jimmylegs is really knowledgeable and helpful. :-D

I wish you the best.

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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm

Ferritin- 17 µg/L................could be a LOT better - aim for 80-100 µg/L
Vitamin D- 123 nmol/L.......okay yes leave vit D where it is until you fix up those minerals :)
b12- 436 pmol/L................you're fine.
Magnesium- .78 mmol/L.....needs improvement - go for 1.1 mmol/L
serum zinc- 12 µmol/L.......needs work too - aim for 18 µmol/L

if you can get a serum copper level at some point, you want that one to be more like 17 µmol/L (not too low, and also not higher than zinc).

here's one online vendor and a few options magnesium-wise (unfortunately I am not sure exactly what your best sourcing options are in Norway!)
http://www.iherb.com/magnesium-glycinate

a decent zinc product (good amount, properly balanced with copper)
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/solaray- ... t9DpE0o7q4

I don't normally need to supplement iron these days, but when I did, I had to go to the pharmacy and ask for the product I wanted over the counter. it was a 300+mg pill that delivered something like 38.5mg of elemental iron. I think it must have been ferrous gluconate.

once you have products in hand we can chat about daily doses and timing

everything supplement-wise should come second to a foundation of healthy, whole, unprocessed, nutrient-dense, and preferably organic foods. so if you can take a look at your diet for zinc, magnesium and iron sources, plus any potential negative impacts on your absorption and retention of these minerals, this info should be worked into your personal plan for addressing nutrient issues.

hope that helps :D
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:23 am

Dear JL! I`\v been away for a few days - but I have looked at the supplements and I bought magnesium glycenate and solaray zinc supplemet. I dont know how long it will take before I have them, but Ill let you know. The ferritin needs to get up, but when I read about 300 mg iron supplement it says that it is very strong and can be toxic. what should I do? The ones that I take DUROFERON doesnt really work...
Also should I not continue to take 5000 vitamin D daily?

everything supplement-wise should come second to a foundation of healthy, whole, unprocessed, nutrient-dense, and preferably organic foods. so if you can take a look at your diet for zinc, magnesium and iron sources, plus any potential negative impacts on your absorption and retention of these minerals, this info should be worked into your personal plan for addressing nutrient issues.

Ok- I try not to eat much gluten. Organic food in Norway is expencive and I cant even find everything I need. I try to eat healthy.
Morning- half lemon squeezed in lukewarm water. 2 slices of finn crisp with butter and cheese or ham. Coffee with a little milk.
Lunch- vegetable soup- with kale , carrots, onions and differnet veggies.Coffee with milk.
snack, a banana or apple, mandarins etc
dinner- fisk 3 times a week ( salmon), red meat 1 or 2 s\days pr.week, . Chicken 2 times7 week. Fo rthe past 3 weeks I dont eat potatoes, pasta, rice , bulgur etc...
Late snacks- 2 finn crisp with cheese.
I try not to eat sugar in week days but in weekends , some dark chocolate.
How does that sound? Not good enough?

Im very grateful for your time and help :lol:
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:44 am

hello again, welcome back!

good news re the mag and zinc :) hope they arrive soon.

re ferrous gluconate 300mg, yes the potential toxicity at that dose is the reason I have had to buy it over the counter, not off the shelf. they don't want kids getting into it by accident. still, it will help you get your ferritin level into a more comfortable range in a reasonably short time.

re vit D, I'd wait until you have your minerals in better order. vit D3 can be demanding, especially when it comes to magnesium. at a minimum, i would wait until you have your magnesium supplement. then we could look at reintroducing vit D3.

food support for iron status could include oysters, clams and veal liver (animal sources eg heme iron are the most bioavailable - oysters and liver would help with zinc as well) as well as spinach, lentils, and chickpeas (the veggie ones - non-heme - must be consumed with vitamin C, eg red bell pepper to improve bioavailability. spinach is also great for magnesium).

some overall diet comments - you could think about diversifying breakfasts and evening snacks, to see if you can break up the finn crisp routine a little.

animal proteins look good. potatoes, sweet potatoes, and other root veg are fine in moderation. same with brown rice. smart to limit the pasta and bulgur.

I'd try to work in a LOT more greens if you can - rotate among full servings of spinach, chard, kale, broccoli, cabbage, romaine lettuce and so on. try for two full servings per day of pure greens. have you ever grown sprouts? I've been doing that lately to add to salads.

avoiding gluten and sugar is wise. dark chocolate is beneficial, within reason. what percent cocoa? 70 and higher is supposed to be the best bet.

we can look at the diet in more detail later but I should get writing elsewhere - I am procrastinating on a deadline tomorrow!
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:12 am

ok, I`m going to talk to my doctor about getting iron shots cause I couldnt find anyone who ships ferrous gluconate 300mg to Norway. So well see how that goes.
I understand the part with vit D - Ill wait until mag and zinc are up.

I changed my diet 3 weeks ago ( so its still very new to me) before I ate a lot of carbs (bread, pasta rice etc). I love bread so I find it quite difficult not to eat it- thats why my morning and evening routine is Finn crisp ( I really miss bread :sad: )
What could I eat for breakfast then?


What do you think about adding raw broccoli in my lunch soup+ I guess I can try to eat 1 whole broccoli every day, or shift between kale, spinach etc. Would that be enough? Of course I can add some for dinner too.

In the weekends I need a sweetie treat- so Ill eat 86 % cocoa.Hope thats ok :)
I have never grown sprouts- is it easy? I dont have green fingers, but I could try :)

All the best




...
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:02 am

hi again :) what iron supplements are available at the local pharmacy? they should have something behind the counter that would work.

I don't know if you would have trouble with will power if you had bread in the house, but if you had some in the freezer and had one slice every few days it wouldn't be the end of the world. i don't eat it often at all, but there is bread in the freezer at my place. and i typically order pizza once per month (almost February pizza time!! lol)

so, breakfast alternatives.

having an egg or two at breakfast once or twice a week would be okay - especially if there were some vegetables in there as well. i like spinach, red pepper, (see the iron in there? lol) mushroom, and a little cheese in my eggs :) and maybe a slice or two of fried tomato on the side. if you were to have a nice diverse breakfast like that, I'm sure half a slice of toast wouldn't be the end of the world :) - and, the spinach and pepper would have the iron you need to make up for the bread.

also, how would you feel about oats, with fruit and milk?

i usually have oats with mixed berries 3 or 4 days per week and eggs/veggies on the weekend days. sometimes i have bacon with my eggs - i am on a ration 1 pack per month (12 slices per pac, and i only use one at a time to spread it out).

potentially you could rotate through finn crisp, eggs and oats for breakfast selections. also, i know some people enjoy breakfast smoothies. not my thing, but there are certainly some great recipes out there. maybe you could experiment

with the greens, diversity over the course of the week is a smart idea. 1c of chopped broccoli in your soup works :) if it were mine, I might give it a quick steam first.
last night for part of my dinner i had a nice big slice of spanakopita with tzatziki. so green and yummy!

your dark chocolate sounds great :)

and, yes sprouts are super easy. all you need is a mason (or similar) jar. (mine has a screen lid insert, so that i can easily rinse them and drain them) they need rinsing/draining twice a day. you give them a few days in a cupboard, and then they go on the windowsill until the leaves start to green up. and that's it!

i better get moving.. lecture soon and with this latest cold snap, i don't know if my car will start for me today!
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby lyndacarol » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:45 am

Helleborus wrote:everything supplement-wise should come second to a foundation of healthy, whole, unprocessed, nutrient-dense, and preferably organic foods. so if you can take a look at your diet for zinc, magnesium and iron sources, plus any potential negative impacts on your absorption and retention of these minerals, this info should be worked into your personal plan for addressing nutrient issues.

Ok- I try not to eat much gluten. Organic food in Norway is expencive and I cant even find everything I need. I try to eat healthy.
Morning- half lemon squeezed in lukewarm water. 2 slices of finn crisp with butter and cheese or ham. Coffee with a little milk.
Lunch- vegetable soup- with kale , carrots, onions and differnet veggies.Coffee with milk.
snack, a banana or apple, mandarins etc
dinner- fisk 3 times a week ( salmon), red meat 1 or 2 s\days pr.week, . Chicken 2 times7 week. Fo rthe past 3 weeks I dont eat potatoes, pasta, rice , bulgur etc...
Late snacks- 2 finn crisp with cheese.
I try not to eat sugar in week days but in weekends , some dark chocolate.
How does that sound? Not good enough?


Welcome to ThisIsMS, Helleborus. You are in good hands with jimmylegs. I agree with her suggestion of an egg for breakfast.

Please let me jump in with my ideas: I think gluten sensitivity, which can develop at any time in one's life and damages the small intestine, interferes with nutrient absorption.

"Trying not to eat much gluten" may not be adequate to heal the gut and improve absorption; try to avoid ALL gluten for 6 weeks or 2-3 months and see if there is a change.

I am not acquainted with Finn crisp, but assume it is similar to Wasa Crispbread, which is a Swedish (almost cracker-like) whole-grain rye product. Gluten is found in wheat, barley, and RYE (and to a lesser degree in some other grains).
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:08 am

Hi again :-D

The strongest iron supplement here in Norway is Duroferon 100 mg fe 2. I dont know how much weaker that is compared to the one that you recommended JL. I cant find any english translation for it. Tomorrow Im going to my doctor and ask for the iron shots.

This weekend I also had oatmeal with blueberries for Breakfast and " only " 2 finn crisps in the evening. Im getting there.
So ill try to have a smoothie or oatmeal in the morning. Im not used to eat veggies in the morning but Ill try.

Im definitely gonna try sprouts! I have to get better with the greens. And like lyndacarol says I should try to quit gluten for a while and see if it helps.

Hopefully the supplements will arrive shortly!

All the best to you and thank you gain for your time :-D
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:09 am

ah details, good. duroferon is ferrous sulfate and that would be fine. I think it actually has more elemental iron than ferrous gluconate.
if you took 200mg of duroferon it should be about the same as 300mg of ferrous gluconate. I have taken both forms in the past.

nice job mixing it up at breakfast :D veggies can be really tasty in omelet in the morning. today I am going to sauté red pepper, then add egg, and then layer on some cheese and spinach before folding over. yum!

I had home grown sprouts on my salad at dinner last night. really nice :)

I am more of a gluten minimalist as you know. I definitely used to react badly to it, but I was zinc deficient then. now I am careful with my zinc status and I don't eat much gluten and it's perfectly fine. if you reduce or outright quit gluten, it can help your body hang on to nutrients. what reduction and avoidance can't necessarily do is correct any chronic nutrient deficiencies, or turn an unhealthy diet into a perfectly healthy one. going gluten free is an individual choice but I think too many ppl ignore the rest of the picture!

when your supplements arrive, we can discuss daily timing and dosage. hope they get there soon :D
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby Helleborus » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:03 am

Hi JimmyL1 Its been a long time now and the supplements got stuck in customs ( something to do with the mag )- Ill contact them today and see what I can do. As a backup I found this, hope thats ok?

http://www.urtesenteret.no/index.php?productID=3041

I really need those supplements cause Im having trouble with my legs, twitching (fasciculations) and bubbling etc.
Also Iv been through a week with antibiotics Flagyl,- didnt get any increased symptoms like they warn you about) I only feel better :)
Another thing that has showed up, Contact Hives. OMG- Iv been in the cosmetics industry for 13 years and never had a problem- now the dermatologist says that I have allergic contact urticaria. Im having so much truble to find a cleanser and some light make- up. Suddenly Im allergic to everything. is Hives a more common problem in MS patients? I cant take the allergy pills that he gave me- I get so tierd and I dont think its good in the long run. Do you know any supplements or herbs a could take for the hives? Getting kinda desperate...

BTW- No more rice crisps- only ones that are gluten free :), I also eat red pepper everyday ( with some cheese) and Im getting iron shots in the near future :)

Hope everything is great with you JL!
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:08 am

hi there :) which mag product had you chosen before, that had been held up? the solaray alternative you posted looks good

glad you're not feeling side effects from meds

re contact hives, I lean towards zinc as a possibly related issue. at my most allergic, I turned out to be zinc deficient. interestingly it was at that time that I felt like I was starting to have problems with cosmetics in particular.

next, zinc iron interactions.. if you started with serum zinc at 12 and have been working on iron using supplements plus vit C without working to address zinc at the same time, your zinc level could be getting driven down further due to competition with iron, possibly linking to your skin troubles. have you been taking any zinc, or is that one you are still waiting for?

also fyi, calcium blocks iron while vit C helps absorption. so if you can, try to eat the red pep with an iron source at least some of the time. maybe a big spinach salad topped with sliced beef and red pepper. or roasted red pepper on a steak :D or a nice meaty chili with red pepper and kidney beans, and a big spinach salad on the side.

fyi: PLASMA-ZINC CONCENTRATIONS IN PATIENTS WITH PSORIASIS, OTHER DERMATOSES, AND VENOUS LEG ULCERATION

in that study, folks with skin troubles including the urticaria cases have plasma zinc levels averaging 15.4 uM while the healthy controls zinc levels are 18.1 uM (top end of the healthy control range is 19.93)

so as far as I am concerned, it's zinc for the hives. if no supplements are handy yet, how do you feel about oysters??

everything is great with me thanks :) fighting a losing battle with a virus at the moment, lost too much sleep and was too naughty in general last week, but it's reading week now so taking it easy, getting lots of sleep, eating right, and taking all my various antiviral vits and mins! :D
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Re: Need supplement help/ suggestions !

Postby lyndacarol » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:12 am

Helleborus wrote:Another thing that has showed up, Contact Hives. OMG- Iv been in the cosmetics industry for 13 years and never had a problem- now the dermatologist says that I have allergic contact urticaria. Im having so much truble to find a cleanser and some light make- up. Suddenly Im allergic to everything. is Hives a more common problem in MS patients?

BTW- No more rice crisps- only ones that are gluten free :), I also eat red pepper everyday ( with some cheese) and Im getting iron shots in the near future :)


There is also autoimmune urticaria (Is this possible in your case?). It is not uncommon for a person diagnosed with one auto immune disease to be diagnosed with a second autoimmune disease, or even a third.

I assume you mean "rye" crisps. Rice is naturally gluten-free.

Red pepper (as well as tomatoes and potatoes) is in the nightshade family – I have heard some diet experts caution against the nightshades (I have not investigated the reasoning.). And… iron deficiency or anemia is VERY common among people with gluten sensitivity.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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