This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

hi moom, you'll probably get a better response to your question if you post under the antibiotics forum.
not sure what you're referring to re: vanderbilt (VU?) but it might be a question better asked under "general discussion"?

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my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Thanks...will do. And, I meant Vanderbilt U. where some doc was
dosing patients with antibiotics for MS.

had a test the other day to investigate a cough i have had for a month. conclusion: reflux. sigh. more to investigate!

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

An up to date my list of daily, every other day, and weekly supplements.

Daily
Vitamin B-50 complex - (50mg dose of most main ingredients) - 1-2 x
Vitamin C 1000mg - 2x
Vitamin E8 complex 400IU (natural ratio with 4 tocopherols and 4 tocopherols VERY IMPORTANT) - 1x

Multimineral Calcium 250mg/Magnesium 125mg/Phosphorus 60mg/Zinc 1mg blend - 2x
Multivitamin - (depending on activity level/nutrient drain) 2-3x

Magnesium glycinate 200mg - 2x
Potassium 600mg (a small banana provides 300mg.. you need to take in 3500-4000mg potassium per day from food, balanced with about 2000mg salt intake - about a 2:1 ratio K:Na. A standard convenience food diet is more like 5:1 Na:K (!!!!) - 2x

Omega3 fish oil - 1000mg with EPA and DHA - 2x

Every other day
Vitamin A - 10,000IU

Iron - 37.5mg (elemental iron from 300mg ferrous gluconate; alternate with zinc every other day) - 1x
Selenium - 200mcg - (you can get your selenium requirement from 2-3 brazil nuts per day) - 1x
Zinc - 50mg - 1x (It's fine to take 25mg zinc every day, but my pills are 50mg) 1x

Weekly
Vitamin D3 liquid - 25000IU - 1drop 1x

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Jimmylegs-
There is much in nutrition/health research that shows the negative outcome of any iron supplementation.
And the RDA for iron is at most 15 mg for women--and this amt includes iron from food-- you are overdosing with a dangerous supplement.

it's ok shye i'm taking that one every OTHER day, and i'm not taking it in isolation from zinc and other competitive nutrients, i menstruate every month, AND, i monitor iron and related levels to make sure nothing is out of whack

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Jimmylegs-
have you done the full iron panel? Hematocrit won't do--need to measure the total serum iron, TIBC, ferritin and transferrin saturation in order to know if getting too much--and the newer thinking is these levels should be at the low end of the reference range, not mid or high end.

an article that addresses iron and the problems it causes:
http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/ ... 0303140150

i have a lot of ferritin and Hct levels on file. personally i have never bothered with Hct as an indicator.

however, in review, my doc has always ordered it when she orders a ferritin test, and sometimes on its own.

anyway, i clicked through onto that link and please, rest assured i am NOWHERE near iron overload levels, not even remotely close.

i have an acquaintance in the same building as me who has hemochromatosis and needs regular phlebotomies or his ferritin levels get up over 400.

my lab's guide to ferritin levels (in ug/L)
<18 probably iron deficient
18-40 possibly deficient
41-100 probably not deficient
101-300 not iron deficient
>300 possible iron overload

jimmyleg's iron timeline:

starting point, 2001. jimmylegs knows nothing about anything at this point in her life, and only has even this basic data because she told her doc she was vegan.

jan 2001
ferritin - 27 ug/L - possibly deficient
Hct - .41 (range 0.33 - 0.450)

may 2002
hct - .38

dec 2005
ferritin - 36 ug/L - possibly deficient
Hct - .40

jan 2006
Hct - .398

jan 2006
DX: MS. jimmylegs starts reading like crazy, starts eating animal products again, and accepts that she had better start taking supplements to correct 15 years nutrient drain via masked starvation

nov 2007
ferritin - 82 ug/L - probably not deficient
Hct - .394

apr 2009
ferritin - 90 ug/L - probably not deficient
Hct - .42

i have done other tests of other types more recently but i don't have the copies in my file yet. i have still never cracked 100 ug/L for ferritin, to be categorized as 'not deficient'.

i would say even with supplements i'm still on the low end of the ref range, for certain.

from your link (my emphasis added):

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

update: added introductory info in first post on this thread.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10609336
Ukr Biokhim Zh. 1999 May-Jun;71(3):112-5.
Oxidative stress in patients with multiple sclerosis.
Syburra C, Passi S.
Abstract
It is well known that brain and nervous system cells are prone to oxidative damage because of their relatively low content of antioxidants, [n]especially enzymatic ones[/n], and of the high levels of both membrane polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) and iron easily released from injured cells. We have investigated the oxidative stress in the blood (plasma, erythrocytes and lymphocytes) of 28 patients affected with multiple sclerosis (MS) and of 30 healthy age matched controls, by performing a multiparameter analysis of non-enzymatic and enzymatic antioxidants--Vitamin E (Vit. E), ubiquinone (UBI), reduced and oxidized glutathione (GSH, GS-SG), superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione peroxidase (GPX), catalase (CAT) and fatty acid patterns of phospholipids (PL-FA). PL-FA and Vit. E were assayed by GC-MS; UBI and GSH/GS-SG by HPLC; SOD, GPX and CAT by spectrophotometry. In comparison to controls, patients with MS showed significantly reduced levels of plasma UBI (0.21 +/- 0.10 vs. 0.78 +/- 0.08 mg/ml, p < 0.001), plasma Vit. E (7.4 +/- 2.1 vs. 11.4 +/- 1.8 mg/ml, p < 0.01), lymphocyte UBI (8.1 +/- 4.0 vs. 30.3 +/- 7.2 ng/ml blood, p < 0.001) and erythrocyte GPX (22.6 +/- 5.7 vs. 36.3 +/- 6.4 U/g Hb, p < 0.001). This blood antioxidant deficiency was associated with plasma levels of PL-PUFA[b]--especially C20:3 n-6 and C20:4 n-6--[b]significantly higher than controls. {jl edit: i'd like to see the data and also if they happened to measure omega-3s and look at the ratios??)
In conclusion, the blood of patients with MS shows the signs of a significant oxidative stress. The possibility of counteracting it by antioxidant administration plus an appropriate diet, might represent a promising way of inhibiting the progression of the disease. Antioxidant supplements should include not only GSH repleting agents (JL note: like zinc), but also Vit. E, ubiquinol, and selenium.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/111/6/1098.pdf
Effect of Zinc Deficiency on Blood Glutathione Levels

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

found a neat magnesium article while looking up info for a friend with arrhythmia - much of it we already know, but i learned a fair bit of new info from this!:

Magnesium is available in chelated (bound to) combinations such as alpha-ketogluconate, aspartate, glycinate, lysinate, orotate, taurate and others.

Chalated magnesium is far better absorbed than magnesium oxide but is more expensive. Complementary medicine practitioners rely on chelated magnesium, such as magnesium glycinate, taurate and oratate (magnesium plus amino acids) to treat serious cases of magnesium deficiency. These kind of magnesiums have less effect on the intestines than magnesium citrate, so they are recomended if you tend to have loose stools.

Magnesium taurate is a combination of the amino acid taurine and magnesium that has special properties for the heart. Taken together in this combination, magnesium and taurine have a synergistic effect, stabilizing cell membranes, making this form of magnesium highly absorbed. Magnesium taurate does not have great laxative effect and is the recommendend form of magnesium for people with heart problems. It appears that the amino acid taurine is important for hearth health and may prevent arrythmias and protect the heart against the damage caused by heart attacks. Magnesium taurate requires oral supplemetation for six to twelve months to restore intracellular levels.

Magnesium citrate is probably the mostly widely used magnesium supplement because it is inexpensive, easily absorbed and only has a mild laxative effect. The best form is magnesium citrate powder mixed in water that can be taken every day.

Magnesium malate combines magnesium with malic acid, a weak organic acid found in vegetables and fruit, especially apples. The weak bond with magnesium makes it readily soluble in the body. Malic acid is a key component of several energy-making chemical reactions in the body. Researchers have used magnesium malate succesfully to treat the chronic fatigue, pain and insomnia of fibromyalgia. Dimagnesium malate increases the amount of magnesium available to the body; it has the same properties as magnesium malate.

Magnesium oxide appears to have high amount of elemental magnesium. One 500 mg capsule of magnesium oxide contains 300 mg of elemental magnesium. But little of that amount is avaialable to the body beacause it is not absorbed and therefore not biologically avaialable. One recent study reported 4 percent absorption rate of magnesium oxide. This means 12 mg of 500 mg capsule are absorbed and 288 may stay in the intestines, acting like a laxative. Imagine how much [more] favorable the result would be if a more absorbable form of magnesium were used.

Magnesiums to avoid
Avoid magnesium glutamate; it breaks down into the neurotransmitter glutamic acid, which without being bound to other amino acids is neurotoxic. Glutamic acid is a component of aspartame, which should also be avoided.

Avoid magnesium aspartate; it breaks down into the neurotransmitter aspartic acid, which without being bound to other aminoacids is neurotoxic. Aspartic acid is a component of aspartame,which als should be avoided.

How to take magnesium
Take your first dose of magnesium when you wake up in the morning and the last dose at bedtime. Magnesium is most deficient in the early morning and late afternoon. Most people find magnesium as good as a sleeping pill to help them get a good night’s rest.

Magnesium can be taken with or without meals, but it is preferable to take it between meals for better absorption. Magnesium requires stomach acid to be absorbed. After a full meal, your stomach acid is busy digesting food and may not be avaialable to help absorb magnesium. Also magnesium is an alkaline mineral and acts like an antacid: taken with meals, it may neutralize stomach acid and impair digestion.

If you develop loose stools while taking magnesium, it does not necessarily mean you are absorbing enough and losing the rest; it may mean you are taking to much at one time. NEVER TAKE YOUR DAILY MAGNESIUM ALL AT ONCE. Spread it out through the day; four times a day is best if you have been experiencing diarrhea. If that does not do the trick, you probably need to cut back the amount you are taking or switch to another type or brand of magnesium.

If you are taking a multivitamin-mineral supplement, remember to check the amount of elemental magnesium on the label and count it in your daily total.

The safety of magnesium supplements
For the average person, oral magnesium, even in high dosages, has no side effects except loose stools, whichs is a mechanism to release excess magnesium and an indication to cut back. Excess magnesium is also lost through the urine.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

reposted from the original CCSVI forum, page 44:

hey there hub - nice addition to the file i don't think you've duplicated anything
i went through the earlier pages of this thread, to sort of get the zinc info in one place:
on CCSVI page 3..

couple more from CCSVI page 7..

and CCSVI page 10...

CCSVI page 16...

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

i've been thinking about the klenner protocol and the high protein recommendation. i've been posting for merlyn re protein deficiency, albumin, and prealbumin testing and i'm trying to understand the connections.

klenner's protein recommendation always made a lot of sense to me as i was so likely to be low in protein due to my many years as a vegan. on the other hand, we're always hearing how our CSF proteins are elevated compared to serum, and serum levels are normal. trying to figure it out...

so i started out today trying to find out the albumin level in healthy controls.

here's my first find:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16581701

i just revisited my dx files because they tested albumin anyway during diagnosis. my level was 39 g/L!

interestingly, this other study found that albumin was elevated in ms patients (although both groups are lower than the healthy controls value cited above): direct-ms article link
(interesting aside: their normal range for magnesium 0.7-1.1mmol/L. according to other research we need to be at least 0.91 nmol/L. both the patients and controls in this study fall into the suboptimal range for serum mag!)

i can't find a nice long list of studies of serum albumin in multiple sclerosis patients, to look at the overall findings

also, in the course of today's research i found an article that might interest the CCSVI treatment group here at TIMS, or may be old news and if so please forgive me

http://tinyurl.com/3x393pa
On the inhibitory effect of albumin on platelet aggregation

that makes sense i guess, since you'd think the aspirin treated group would need the albumin effect less.

another study on prealbumin levels and a vascular connection (horrible phrasing but essentially severe stroke = lowest prealbumin levels):
http://www.springerlink.com/content/1550403103808174/

anyway, i'll keep digging around on this one and add it to the mix when and if i can nail down enough science

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Just wanted to say my albumin levels along with Bilirubin levels are high and have been for years (pre-MS diagnosis but having symptoms)

Its good to know you're on the case Jimmy:)