This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

a doc who thinks there's nothing wrong with this picture, makes me sad. so do this lab's normal ranges.

the results themselves make me happy b/c the issues are obvious, and we can fix 'em right up!:

UA 239 (120-400) umol/L
serum mg 0.71 (0.65-1.05) mmol/L
serum zn 12.5 (11.5-18.5) umol/L
serum ferritin 27 (11-145) Ug/L

re that last one, compare:
<18 probably iron deficient
18-40 possibly deficient
41-100 probably not deficient
101-300 not iron deficient
>300 possible iron overload

targets:
UA 290-300 umol/L
serum mg >0.90 mmol/L
serum zn 18 umol/L
serum ferritin 100 Ug/L

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

good read on managing dietary IF and O-6:O-3 balance.
http://theconsciouslife.com/anti-inflam ... 6-fats.htm

i tend to disagree with the low/no fat thing. i want to be able to absorb vit A, D, E, K.

wondering if it's okay to have olive and flax oil, as well as grapeseed and sunflower. i think maybe, since my diet is largely whole foods, that i might be okay having all four, within reason.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

was just reading about pink slime (relieved it's not used in canada) and noted this paragraph:

"The process for making LFTB has been in use for about 30 years. After the cow carcass is mechanically deboned, there is still some meat and fat left on the bones. In order to retrieve those remnants, the meat is cooked to loosen it from the bones and the scraps sent through a centrifuge which separates the fat and meat. The lean meat is forced through a tube the diameter of a pencil, where it is treated with ammonium hydroxide gas. The combination of the gas and water in the meat increases the pH (that is, lowers the acidity) of the meat, killing any pathogens. The resulting paste is then mixed in with ground beef, in some cases up to 25 per cent of the volume."

i wonder if they could augment the feed to keep the level of pathogens down too...

Serum alkaline phosphatase after treatment of zinc deficiency in humans
http://www.ajcn.org/content/33/12/2609.full.pdf

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

just logged a solid 2 hrs in the sun

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

omg selenium is pretty tough to nail down - look at the variability in these few studies:

this isn't weighted by n for the various studies but all the same:
patient serum averages: 129, 55, 126, 112, 103, 66, 49 (49 is the serum average of patient groups in the last study 53, 55, 46, 41); overall patient average 91
control serum averages: 136, 78, 125, 145, 117, 88, 89; overall control average 111

the only case where selenium is higher in patients is a diabetes study and the numbers are so close that without checking their stats analysis, i don't know how they decided the finding had any significance.

PREDIAGNOSTIC SERUM SELENIUM AND RISK OF CANCER
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lance ... 40-6736(83)90116-2/abstract
Selenium levels in serum samples collected in 1973 from 111 subjects in whom cancer developed during the subsequent 5 years were compared with those in serum samples from 210 cancer-free subjects matched for age, race, sex, and smoking history. The mean selenium level of cases (0·129±SEM 0·002 μg/ml) was significantly lower than that of controls (0·136±0·002 μg/ml).

The serum selenium concentration of patients with acute myocardial infarction.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3717871
Serum selenium concentration was determined in 49 patients with acute myocardial infarction within 4 hours after the beginning of the symptoms. The mean serum selenium concentration of the patients was significantly lower than that of healthy controls (55 +/- 15 micrograms/l vs. 78 +/- 11 micrograms/l).

Serum Selenium and Diabetes in U.S. Adults
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... l.pdf+html
Mean serum selenium levels in participants with and without diabetes were 126.5 and 125.7 ng/ml, respectively.

A STUDY OF SERUM ZINC, SELENIUM AND COPPER LEVELS IN CARCINOMA OF ESOPHAGUS PATIENTS
http://www.canaltlabs.com/pictures/site ... TIENTS.pdf
......................Se (ng/ml)...Cu (ug/dl)...........Zn (ug/dl)
Control Group..145 ± 47.....108.69 ± 16.47.....87.17 ± 6.43
Patient Group..112 ± 32.....142.16 ± 18.72.....75.20 ± 5.57

Serum Selenium Levels in Hemodialysis Patients Are Significantly Lower than Those in Healthy Controls
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr ... /000323538
Multivariate-adjusted means (95% CIs) of serum selenium levels were 103 µg/l (101-105) in hemodialysis patients and 117 µg/l (114-121) in controls.

Study of the correlation of serum selenium level with Behcet’s disease
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 016.d04t01
Mean serum selenium levels of patients appeared to be 66.4 ± 15.38 μg/L which was significantly lower than that in the healthy controls (86.87 ± 17.18 μg/L) (P < 0.005).

Decreased serum selenium in alcoholics as related to liver structure and function
http://www.ajcn.org/content/42/1/147.abstract
...serum selenium concentration varied from 12 to 88 micrograms/l and was lower (p less than 0.001) in all groups of alcoholics, ie patients with normal liver (53.0 +/- 20.7 micrograms/l, mean +/- SD), fatty liver (55.8 +/- 21.2 micrograms/l), alcoholic hepatitis (46.0 +/- 14.1 micrograms/l), and cirrhosis (41.1 +/- 12.8 micrograms/l), than in 25 healthy controls (88.7 +/- 11.0 micrograms/l).

so what now... i already posted a link to this abstract elsewhere, but a copy belongs here i think

A report of high-dose selenium supplementation: response and toxicities
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2X04000112
"Concerns about the toxicity of selenium has limited the doses used in chemoprevention. Based on previous studies, intakes of 400 μg/day and plasma selenium of 1000 ng/ml (Dietary Reference Intakes, Academy Press, New York, 2000, p. 384) were established as the no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL). This investigation summarizes the plasma response and toxicity reports from 24 men with biopsy-proven prostate cancer who were randomized to either 1600 or 3200 μg/day of selenized yeast as part of a controlled clinical trial testing selenium as a chemopreventive agent for prostate cancer progression. Subjects were on these doses for averages of almost 12 months. Plasma selenium levels were monitored throughout the course of follow-up. Symptoms of selenium toxicity were assessed by patient interview with specific questions regarding breath, hair and nail changes. Several liver and kidney function tests and hematology were measured at 6-month intervals.

8 subjects were randomized to the 1600 μg/day and 16 to the 3200 μg/day group. The mean plasma selenium levels achieved with supplementation were 492.2 ng/ml (SD=188.3) and 639.7 ng/ml (SD=490.7) for the 1600 and 3200 μg/day doses, respectively. The 3200 μg/day group reported more selenium-related side effects. Blood chemistry and hematology results were all within normal limits for both treatment groups.

More subjects on 3200 μg/day reported symptoms of selenium toxicity; however, these reports did not correspond to peaks in plasma selenium levels. We observed no obvious selenium-related serious toxicities. As selenium is used in more chemoprevention and therapeutic settings, additional information on selenium species, sequestration of selenium in specific organs, excretion, and toxicities is needed."

also fyi re serum vs plasma se:
Concentration differences between serum and plasma of the elements cobalt, iron, mercury, rubidium, selenium and zinc determined by neutron activation analysis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7233153
"No significant differences in the concentrations of cesium, cobalt, mercury and selenium were observed"

i feel comfortable with dietary se intake plus 200 mcg supplemental daily, but i do know my levels have ended up around 180 from past testing. maybe i'll try selenium every other day for a while and see if anything happens, positive or negative.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

hmm hmm hmm, sun's a bit stronger today, just burnt myself in less than 30 mins :S

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

Jimmylegs,
How is your health now, May 19, 2012?
Cynde

My lab testing company reports a reference interval of 79-326 μg/L for serum selenium. Not helpful I know.

NHE

awesome thanks! i have a very active and physically demanding job, and each year it gets easier. after my dx attack, i just slowly got better, and now i am in good shape if i stick to my regimen, and bad shape (eg my fingernails - the nail bed changes and the nail can separate) if i don't. i suspect my regimen is good for maintenance only and not super for rebuilding depleted stores. i have some outstanding skin issues that i had cleared up at one time, but have come back. i'm still working out what needs to happen there. i don't think i'll ever get rid of the stocking and glove neuropathy but it's my new normal and it doesn't really affect me too much. one of my biggest personal challenges is dehydration, the associated tendency to hypotension, and because of the lower blood flow, related impacts on oxygen and nutrient delivery.
had a day off today and spent it playing guitar (which i couldn't do at one time) and then hiking out to a campfire at a local waterfall for a dinner cookout (back in the day, flat pavement was a challenge for me, forget about stairs).

@NHE, yeah that's just the range of whoever got it tested at your lab right? i haven't gone back and checked what the range was at my lab lately. it's a tough nut to crack, no pun intended

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

day off tomo. hope it's sunny, i'll make some vit d outside

you know what i really like? being able to order a pizza like a regular person, eat it, and stay comfortable, not dying with pain and bloating, like i used to in 06 before identifying that pesky zinc problem.

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

so i was sitting here on my day off, sipping my morning tea, and the phone rings, and sure enough i was supposed to be at work after all. no sunshine for me! (other than face and forearms) :S

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

whew the last few days have been a whirlwind, teaching groups in the day, and in the evenings, prepping for today's stewardship event. luckily everything went pretty smoothly. think the nursery had a few of the plants tagged wrong, but oh well, we planted em anyway! this little patch of forest looks better every year

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

DIETARY REFERENCE INTAKES FOR Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc
Overview and Methods
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10026&page=44
Zinc is associated with catalytic activity of more than 200 enzymes and regulatory proteins, including transcription factors.
Zinc
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_ ... 6&page=443
Nearly 100 specific enzymes (e.g., EC 1.1.1.1 alcohol dehydrogenase) depend on zinc for catalytic activity.

wondering: are the differences in these two statements as simple as association being distinct from dependence?

anyway, the whole zinc section is worth a read. i read this for the umpteenth time and finally something clicked.

"Zinc functions as a component of various enzymes in the maintenance of the structural integrity of proteins and in the regulation of gene expression. Overt human zinc deficiency in North America is not common, and the symptoms of a mild deficiency are diverse due to zinc’s ubiquitous involvement in metabolic processes. Factorial analysis was used to set the Estimated Average Requirement (EAR). The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for adults is 8 mg/ day for women and 11 mg/day for men. Recently, the median intake from food in the United States was approximately 9 mg/day for women and 14 mg/day for men. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 40 mg/day, a value based on reduction in erythrocyte copper-zinc superoxide dismutase activity"

hmm, if i figured out exactly what the methods for establishing EAR looked like, and the associated RDA, and had a closer look at serum levels and CuZnSOD, i might disagree on the RDA and suggest that 40mg/day was the optimal average intake, so that the median intake of 9-14 mg per day would indicate deficiency for everyone with chronic intakes at that level. as i've paraphrased the odd time in the past, "symptoms of a mild deficiency are diverse due to zinc’s ubiquitous involvement in metabolic processes".

perhaps this link between zinc intake and CuZnSOD activity is an example of that plateau (or potentially 'peak') scenario i was talking about in reference to selenium and GPx, on the previous page. wrt CuZnSOD, the idea of a peak would make sense because eventually high zinc would depress copper levels. so perhaps peak CuZnSOD activity indicates the optimal serum copper zinc ratio. interesting. i often order copper and zinc tests together. would be interesting to see if i can get CuZnSOD done too

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

made some long overdue updates to page 1 post 1. thanks for the nudge LC

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com

neat story:
http://wawataynews.ca/archive/all/2012/ ... path_22749
"“I couldn’t taste anything at first because there was no salt in anything I was eating. Everything we eat has salt in it. First Nations people just ate things like there were, so duck tastes like duck, and moose tastes like moose...but after about a month I started tasting again,” Ducharme said."

_________________
my approach: no meds so far - just balanced whole foods (partial 'paleo', much less outright elimination), science, supplements, & bloodwork
my regimen - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com