MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:11 am

I suspect that since diet is the only accepted way to manage insulin that we may indeed have a nutrient=horse and insulin=cart scenario. in the one study they correlated high insulin with low dietary mag compared to controls, and in the other they corrected high insulin with zinc therapy, and given that dietary deficits of mag and zinc are so prevalent, seems like a reasonable conclusion. I wonder if there are studies out there where they start with normal insulin, then deplete a nutrient, and measure insulin response.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:02 pm

jimmylegs wrote:I suspect that since diet is the only accepted way to manage insulin that we may indeed have a nutrient=horse and insulin=cart scenario. in the one study they correlated high insulin with low dietary mag compared to controls, and in the other they corrected high insulin with zinc therapy, and given that dietary deficits of mag and zinc are so prevalent, seems like a reasonable conclusion. I wonder if there are studies out there where they start with normal insulin, then deplete a nutrient, and measure insulin response.


I agree with your logic. However, it doesn't seem to work for me. I have taken zinc and magnesium supplements for years and my insulin levels remain elevated. (Granted, I haven't had testing for zinc and magnesium levels.) Is it possible that I have been swallowing zinc and magnesium but not absorbing them? I am looking into the Leaky Gut possibility that Leonard has proposed in his posts.

I do hope you can find a study such as you describe.
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:05 pm

hey there, any chance you could get a couple tests done?

I've spent a lot of time reading about membrane permeability (including leaky gut) in research, and zinc comes up strongly on that score as well. I used to react quite badly to certain foods and since correcting the zinc deficiency the issue has resolved nicely.

had you seen these research titles I posted earlier this month?
Association of vitamin A and zinc status with altered intestinal permeability: analyses of cohort data from northeastern Brazil (2011)
Dietary supplementation with zinc and a growth factor extract derived from bovine cheese whey improves methotrexate-damaged rat intestine (2003)
Nitric oxide synthase inhibitor attenuates intestinal damage induced by zinc deficiency in rats (1999)
Enteric protein loss and intestinal permeability changes in children during acute shigellosis and after recovery: effect of zinc supplementation. (1994)

in the short term, could you give me a recap as to your daily zinc, magnesium and d3 regimen? any possibility of a three day diet diary? I could review for gaps/conflicts

if you do get tests and find that your levels are down in spite of supplementing, it could be time to examine cofactors.

here's an interesting article on zinc absorption and potential absorption issues depending on intakes of protein, phytate, other minerals, etc:

Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:35 pm

Overview of Zinc Absorption and Excretion in the Human Gastrointestinal Tract
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1374S.full
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby lyndacarol » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hey there, any chance you could get a couple tests done?

I've spent a lot of time reading about membrane permeability (including leaky gut) in research, and zinc comes up strongly on that score as well. I used to react quite badly to certain foods and since correcting the zinc deficiency the issue has resolved nicely.

had you seen these research titles I posted earlier this month?
Association of vitamin A and zinc status with altered intestinal permeability: analyses of cohort data from northeastern Brazil (2011)
Dietary supplementation with zinc and a growth factor extract derived from bovine cheese whey improves methotrexate-damaged rat intestine (2003)
Nitric oxide synthase inhibitor attenuates intestinal damage induced by zinc deficiency in rats (1999)
Enteric protein loss and intestinal permeability changes in children during acute shigellosis and after recovery: effect of zinc supplementation. (1994)

in the short term, could you give me a recap as to your daily zinc, magnesium and d3 regimen? any possibility of a three day diet diary? I could review for gaps/conflicts

if you do get tests and find that your levels are down in spite of supplementing, it could be time to examine cofactors.

here's an interesting article on zinc absorption and potential absorption issues depending on intakes of protein, phytate, other minerals, etc:

Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full


I will be seeking another insulin test in September; it would be convenient to have a zinc and a magnesium test done at the same time.

I don't anticipate a problem getting the test order from my physician; however, I do have a new doctor. Can you post here just exactly the names for the zinc and magnesium testing I should ask for? And the optimal results I would hope to have?

I will give you a recap on supplementation: I have discontinued vitamin D3 for the summer and try to get sunshine exposure. I am taking 75 mg of zinc daily. I have been taking magnesium glycinate (400 mg), but will soon try magnesium sulfate and hope for improvement in muscle spasms.

As for my three-day diet diary:

Day 1: Breakfast: 1 egg (fried or hard-cooked), cheese (rotates among Havarti, Jarlsberg, Gouda), green tea w/lemon, berries
Lunch: 1/2 avocado, chicken salad, tea (hibiscus these days), fruit (berries, grapes, or cherries – seasonal)
Supper: pork chop, onions, potatoes, Brussels sprouts, green tea w/ lemon

Day 2: Breakfast: same every day (sometimes I have only green tea)
Lunch: 1/2 avocado every day, hummus, tea, fruit,
Supper: baked chicken, sweet potato, green tea w/ lemon, sautéed kale

Day 3: Breakfast as usual
Lunch: 1/2 avocado, radishes, cheese, tea, fruit
Supper: Mean Green juice (3 apples, 1 cucumber, 4 ribs celery, 1 lemon, 1" ginger) – leftovers for the next day lunch or supper

I am not a big eater, eat no bread, limiting carbs, avoiding wheat and gluten; I usually have a midafternoon snack of cashews (or other nuts) and dark chocolate and lemon water; I prefer routine – to some, my diet would seem monotonous.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:23 pm

thanks for the info! food choices look healthy but are marginal for zinc and magnesium. although a regular 1/4c infusion of cashews should provide 100mg of magnesium which is great, if you are getting through that many.

oysters and calf's liver are particularly high in zinc. lamb beef and scallops are also rich sources.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart

spinach, swiss chard and pumpkin seeds are tops for dietary magnesium. a serving of halibut also delivers a hefty dose.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
do you like spanakopita? in spite of it's paper-thin excuse for pastry? ;) //great way to work in cooked spinach by the full cup :)

may I ask if your mag glycinate is 400mg containing 70mg elemental magnesium? or is it some giant monster pill that manages to contain 400mg elemental magnesium?

may I also inquire whether your zinc product is balanced with copper? fyi it's wise to monitor both serum ferritin and serum copper if high dosing zinc for any length of time.

speaking of monitoring, the tests are nothing fancy - just serum magnesium (not RBC) and serum zinc (plus serum copper and serum ferritin if you can arrange it).

optimal levels are as always listed here under the subheading 'serum targets': regimens-f22/topic2489.html
if you have any trouble locating, just let me know :)

make sure you do a washout in advance of your September tests - will be very interesting to see your results!
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby lyndacarol » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:01 pm

jimmylegs wrote:thanks for the info! food choices look healthy but are marginal for zinc and magnesium. although a regular 1/4c infusion of cashews should provide 100mg of magnesium which is great, if you are getting through that many.
I LOVE nuts: cashews, almonds, macadamias, walnuts, pecans, pretty much all. I easily consume a quarter cup in my snack.

oysters and calf's liver are particularly high in zinc. lamb beef and scallops are also rich sources.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
I can't bring myself to eat oysters or any liver; I eat beef a couple times a week, I eat fish at least once a week (love salmon, trout, halibut, cod), scallops occasionally.

spinach, swiss chard and pumpkin seeds are tops for dietary magnesium. a serving of halibut also delivers a hefty dose.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
do you like spanakopita? in spite of it's paper-thin excuse for pastry? ;) //great way to work in cooked spinach by the full cup :)
I love spinach – usually in a salad; creamed spinach is great; I have never tried spanakopita.

may I ask if your mag glycinate is 400mg containing 70mg elemental magnesium? or is it some giant monster pill that manages to contain 400mg elemental magnesium?
I take Solaray brand magnesium glycinate, 400 mg; there is no breakout of elemental magnesium.

may I also inquire whether your zinc product is balanced with copper? fyi it's wise to monitor both serum ferritin and serum copper if high dosing zinc for any length of time.
I take Solaray zinc as zinc amino acid chelate – no copper listed. Recently, I have heard a couple cautions about too much copper; have you heard of this?

speaking of monitoring, the tests are nothing fancy - just serum magnesium (not RBC) and serum zinc (plus serum copper and serum ferritin if you can arrange it).

optimal levels are as always listed here under the subheading 'serum targets': regimens-f22/topic2489.html
if you have any trouble locating, just let me know :)

make sure you do a washout in advance of your September tests - will be very interesting to see your results!
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:16 am

that is great news re the nuts! they'll get you 25% of the way to a 400mg per day minimum. we should look at your dietary cal mag ratio at some point too, make sure it's in line.

as for animal sources of zinc I confess I am not an oyster fan and I don't tend to choose liver although I was given it to eat twice this week and i'll eat it even if it's not my fave. i am trying to work a variety of zinc sources into my diet in a healthful way. have not had much luck (only tried once so far) with the scallop shopping. in the meantime a moderate reduction of gluten plus a zinc supplement keeps thing in line - still working on getting the latest bloodwork results into my files though :s

glad you like creamed spinach! if you can eat it by the 1c serving, that will add at least another 100mg to your daily intake. i will post a spanakopita recipe, it is SO GOOD!!!

now as for this solaray mag glycinate product, you know i'm a fan of that particular form. question: are you taking one pill per day of those?

moving on to zinc and copper.. when taking zinc over the long term, copper and iron have the potential to suffer. and vice versa. i think the scare related to excess copper has a lot to do with the copper zinc ratio. you see a lot in the research that relates a high copper zinc ratio to illness. i have yet to see a study that related high zinc copper ratio to illness, unless it was specifically from excess zinc supplementation or exposure. as with everything else, it's smart to measure your status. you want your zinc to be right up at the high end of the WHO reference range, and the copper slightly lower so that the ratio comes out around 1.1. did you find the targets section all right? the numbers are there.
as with other essential nutrients it is possible to have too little copper. so although the tendency of an unbalanced zinc supplement to drive down copper (and iron) could be seen as beneficial in the short term, measuring would be key to preventing the overall balance from swinging too far the other way.

eep have to get ready for work! ttfn
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby lyndacarol » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:09 pm

jimmylegs wrote:that is great news re the nuts! they'll get you 25% of the way to a 400mg per day minimum. we should look at your dietary cal mag ratio at some point too, make sure it's in line.

as for animal sources of zinc I confess I am not an oyster fan and I don't tend to choose liver although I was given it to eat twice this week and i'll eat it even if it's not my fave. i am trying to work a variety of zinc sources into my diet in a healthful way. have not had much luck (only tried once so far) with the scallop shopping. in the meantime a moderate reduction of gluten plus a zinc supplement keeps thing in line - still working on getting the latest bloodwork results into my files though :s

glad you like creamed spinach! if you can eat it by the 1c serving, that will add at least another 100mg to your daily intake. i will post a spanakopita recipe, it is SO GOOD!!!

now as for this solaray mag glycinate product, you know i'm a fan of that particular form. question: are you taking one pill per day of those?

moving on to zinc and copper.. when taking zinc over the long term, copper and iron have the potential to suffer. and vice versa. i think the scare related to excess copper has a lot to do with the copper zinc ratio. you see a lot in the research that relates a high copper zinc ratio to illness. i have yet to see a study that related high zinc copper ratio to illness, unless it was specifically from excess zinc supplementation or exposure. as with everything else, it's smart to measure your status. you want your zinc to be right up at the high end of the WHO reference range, and the copper slightly lower so that the ratio comes out around 1.1. did you find the targets section all right? the numbers are there.
as with other essential nutrients it is possible to have too little copper. so although the tendency of an unbalanced zinc supplement to drive down copper (and iron) could be seen as beneficial in the short term, measuring would be key to preventing the overall balance from swinging too far the other way.

eep have to get ready for work! ttfn


I have not been especially concerned about calcium; I eat cheese a couple times each day and broccoli often (like last night for supper).

I am putting great faith in my zinc supplement.

Creamed spinach is really good – a little nutmeg in it (nutmeg is anti-inflammatory, I believe).

Yes, I take one Solaray magnesium glycinate per day.

Copper has been in the news this week as having a possible link to Alzheimer's. One report I saw attributed high copper levels to having copper pipes in the house for water (which we have).

Supper tonight was cod and green beans with onions; today I heard that a fish called black cod is actually better than salmon for Omega-3's. I have not heard of this fish before; I need to ask in our very good fish store here. Have you heard of black cod?
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:01 pm

ah i'm not concerned about the lack of calcium, more the balance with magnesium, potential impacts on zinc, that kind of thing.
if you're depending on the zinc supplement, you will probably want to measure both serum ferritin and serum copper as well as serum zinc to make sure no imbalances are developing. there is definitely such thing as too little copper.. wise to check if you can. I've heard all the bad news about copper.. but I've read plenty about copper deficiency as well. unfortunately the negative high copper messaging seems just as one sided as the positive hype about calcium, at the expense of magnesium status.
OK so each solaray magnesium pill delivers 100 mg of elemental magnesium. the serving size for 'solaray magnesium glycinate 400mg' appears to be 4 pills. so, the supplement is currently delivering 25% of your daily magnesium needs. you might want to experiment with a couple more of those per day and see how you feel. perhaps there will be a response in fasting insulin.
if you read this next link, you'll know all I know about black cod! http://www.davidsuzuki.org/what-you-can ... sablefish/
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:20 am

Found a jimmy brain snack (suddenly you've become scoobyesque) whilst trying to prepare for my ebv massacre (doc thinks he's got an it rituxan source. Yay!). Anywho, thought this might be your kind of thing.

Boosting Nk cells through diet...
http://www.nleducation.co.uk/resources/ ... -immunity/
http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v13/n ... i3511.html
Broccoli and brussel sprouts and bears!
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:55 am

thanks for those anon :)

LC checking on on whether you had a chance to read that at a dose of one pill per day of your solaray mag glycinate 400mg, that you're getting one quarter of a serving, ie 100mg?
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby lyndacarol » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:21 pm

I have checked the Solaray magnesium bottle again. You must be correct – the recommended dose is 4 pills per day. I am now taking 4 per day.
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:04 pm

ok sounds good LC! should benefit your serum magnesium results when you go in sept.
do consider a week long washout of all supplements prior to your bloodwork. you may already do this, I don't know :)
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: MS Nutrition-summary pts 1st post, p.1

Postby shellyb21 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:29 am

My vit d was at 12 so very low taking 50000 a week in pill from dr now its at low end but better I need to get my self more energy back :) so reading all your info and going to get tested :)
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