meat - How does it work?

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meat - How does it work?

Postby mevrouw » Tue May 12, 2015 3:08 am

Hi All,

I am new to any of the diets that exist to MS and am hoping that any of you can help me to explain eating of meat. If meat would be bad for MS, what is the underlying mechanism? Is it just the saturated fat, or are more mechanisms playing a role?

Thanks so much
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby EricDrake » Tue May 12, 2015 3:31 am

Hi,

As far as I know meat itself is not bad but you should avoid fatty meat, I think the most important aspect of those diets is to stay healthy and fit which is really useful when you feel fatigue and weakness ( it really matters that how much weight you carry when your legs are weaker a bit) and also helps your immune system to work correctly and don't overreact. Of course I am not an expert but based on the articles I read thats my opinion.
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby EricDrake » Tue May 12, 2015 3:34 am

Ah and I forgot to mention but these diets are also very important/helpful if you have bowel issues.
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby Scott1 » Tue May 12, 2015 5:49 am

Hi,

I don't know where you got the idea that meat was bad for you! We can break it down into grain fed, corn fed, hormonally assisted, antibiotic aided, organic, wild, grain fed grass finished and so on. They're all meat so take your pick. Compared to nonorganic crops, high fructose syrups, refined sugars, artificial sweeteners, trans fats or hydrogenated oils, the meats mightn't be that bad after all.
No matter what you eat, food that is local and close to natural is probably the best to go for. At least you know what it is.
Perhaps Terry Wahls book "The Wahls protocol" might be a good place for you to start. At least she has documented the use of food in combating MS. Be prepared to eat animal product, in particular offal, if you choose to follow her lead.
My advice is to read widely, including in these posts, and look for advice that has followed a path where ideas are well researched. You'll find something that will fit with your way of thinking but be wary of fads. Look for something that is demonstrably evidence based.
Regards
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby ElliotB » Tue May 12, 2015 10:27 am

Certain meats, generally only 100% grass fed meats, are high in good fats (Omega 3) and low in bad fats and are considered extremely healthy. In fact, they are as healthy as wild caught fishes such as Salmon, Tuna and Sardines which are commonly accepted as being healthy for you (an approved food on just about every diet), Keep in mind that the fat composition of farm raised fish is quite different than that of wild fish when it comes to beneficial fat content and the ratio of good fats to bad fats. And so it is with meats, grass fed meats are high in good fats and grain fed meats (typically what you find in the supermarkets) are typically high in bad fats, low in Omega 3 and other good fats.

I have been on a high good fat diet since last June (2014) I consume typically well over 2lbs of grass fed meats and wild caught seafood a day. I eat only grass fed meats, wild caught seafood and veggies. The only fruits I eat are blueberries, blackberries, strawberries and raspberries which are low glycemic. I consume no carbs of any kind (obviously gluten free). I did recently add a small amount of cheese to my diet made from grass fed cows. What a treat! Needless to say, I am doing very well (all things considered) - I have blood work done every three months. My cholesterol, which has been high all my life and high enough a couple of years ago to have my doctor insist I go on Crestor, which I have not had to take in over a year. My blood work shows that I am quite healthy.

Keep in mind that just like certain vitamins that are essential for good health, certain fats are essential for good health (they are called EFAs or essential fatty acids).

I strongly recommend anyone considering eating any meats only eat grass fed meats. And also, do some research online. And read Dr. Wahls' book The Wahls Protocol. Another great resource for info on grass fed meat is here:

http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/grass- ... -education

There is a books worth of info on this site.
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby mevrouw » Wed May 13, 2015 1:09 am

Hi All, thanks very much..
I do not remember where exactely I got the idea that meat would not be good, but I believe I read in multiple posts that people had stopped eating red meat, and hence the question. I would really like to improve my diet, but for me it is important to understand the underlying mechanisms. Think to begin I will start reading the wahls protocol.

@ElliotB Wow, 2lbs of meat/fish, sounds like heaven ;) for me being a real carnivor.. Can I ask you why you decided to go off cards completely? I thought that for instance quinoa and rice do not contain any gluten? Or is it to keep the insulin level steady? If so, how does insulin influence MS ?
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 13, 2015 4:15 am

haven't read the above in detail, so just in passing will share that the decision to give up red meat should, in my view, be personal. when i was diagnosed i hadn't touched red meat in well over a decade so it wasn't a recommendation that made sense to me. it wouldnt have made sense to dr wahls either, i shouldn't think, her having been a vegetarian prior to her own dx.

cutting factory farmed red meat based on having a prior pattern of overconsumption makes more sense for the non-vegetarians. there are a few diets which suggest limiting red meat, and i think the folks that cut it out for good are probably missing the point - which i, admittedly not having read any of them in great detail, think must be about restoring balance to an unbalanced system. i prefer recommendations that expect a consumer to be discerning about the *quality* of their food choices as well, for instance, going by quick reference info alone, i prefer 'best bet' to swank

from the swank diet:
No red meat for the first year.
After the first year, 3 oz. of red meat is allowed once per week.

from best bet:
Reduce
-Foods that contain saturated fat. Eat red meat (lean cuts) only once a week.
Increase
-skinless chicken breast, game meat and fish

in spite of this, you will find far more discussion on the cutting red meat end of things than you will on the game meat side. if you search the forum for the term 'venison' for example, you won't get many results and the vast majority are posts by yours truly:
search.php?st&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=venison&start=45
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby ElliotB » Wed May 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Why did I choose to go on a high GOOD fat diet? Good question. After my diagnosis (2 years ago), I immediately went on a slightly modified Swank diet. I basically eliminated virtually all foods that I was eating prior to getting sick except for ones I considered 'neutral' such as vegetables and fruit. I did a lot of research and in time, I became very interested in the Paleo diet. I added a small amount of lean grass fed meats and consumed a lot of wild salmon, tuna and sardines. After a relapse almost a year after starting the Swank diet and because of the research I had done on many of the foods included in the Swank diet (which is about 50 years old at this point) I decided to follow the Paleo diet and then last June, I decided to follow The Real Diet of Man diet, which is today's best estimate of what early and evolving man would have eaten. I got advise from the owner of the company I was purchasing my grass fed meats from, which incidentally is the same company that Dr. Wahls uses (or at least used - she has a testimonial on their site). His suggestion, eat only fatty grass fed meats, vegetables and limited amounts of low glycemic fruit. My research about fat from grass fed animals and wild caught fish is that it is very GOOD for us - it is loaded with nutrition and energy. There is finally some info on the web that substantiates this, although it is limited. But last year, it was scarce.

I have to admit going on this diet was a little scary at first, as everything I had been conditioned to think with regard to meats up until that point was to eat only lean meats and only to eat them in limited amounts. And of course the Swank Diet said NO meats for the first year. I had eaten a lot of low fat chicken and turkey prior. And here I was being told to consume only the fattiest cuts of meat (grass fed of course), and in large quantities. So I totally cut out chicken and turkey, and started eating only fatty grass fed meats. A few months after starting this diet I purchased and read Dr. Wahls' book, which brought me relief and support of my decision. Others seemed to have great successes with this type of diet. I have stuck with it and overall I am feeling great. My blood work shows I am doing well health wise (I have had blood work done every three months). I eat a tremendous amount of food (it usually takes me 45 minutes to eat my entire dinner because there is so much food), I am never hungry (NEVER), I eat only two meals a day (as recommended by Dr. Wahls although I started doing this prior to reading her book).

This is not an easy diet to follow because it is so limited, but it is kind of cool to be able to eat so much, and feel good, and loose weight (I have lost over 45lbs). And hopefully keep my relapses at a minimum. Time will tell. I have very high expectations based on my 1st year of following this diet. As I mentioned previously, I have added a limited amount of cheese made from grass pastured cows and have added some chicken as the company I get my grass fed meats from now offers chickens high in Omega 3. I only eat the wings, thighs, legs and necks which are higher in omega 3 fat than the leaner parts like the breast. Amazingly, the 'dark' meat which has the most fat in it is about as light in color as breast meat and the flavor is tremendous.

I wanted to add also that I do take a lot of supplements including 40,000 IU of Vitamin D3, and do some kind of exercise 3-4 hours a day, and am taking Copaxone. I started taking 60mg daily of Biotin (Vitamin H) about two weeks ago.
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby zjac020 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:28 am

On that level of D3, do you take vitamin K and avoid calcium in your diet? Have you heaed of Dr Cicero Coimbras protocol.

Have you noticed any changes with Biotin? I assume you are RR?
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby ElliotB » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:35 pm

...do you take vitamin K and avoid calcium in your diet?"

I do take vitamin K and calcium as supplements and many of the foods I consume are naturally high in both Vitamin K and calcium. What is there a reason to avoid calcium?

"Have you noticed any changes with Biotin?"

I have not really noticed any change since adding high doses of additional Biotin to my daily regimen. I was not aware at the time when I started this diet that grass fed meats and the other foods I consume are naturally high in Biotin. In fact, grass fed meat is naturally balanced when it comes to nutrition and that is one of the great benefits of eating them. Perhaps this is why the diet is so successful.

In any case, according to the study, it takes the better part of a year to feel the effects of Biotin. Time will tell...
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby orphansparrow » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:28 pm

ElliotB wrote:...do you take vitamin K and avoid calcium in your diet?"

I do take vitamin K and calcium as supplements and many of the foods I consume are naturally high in both Vitamin K and calcium. What is there a reason to avoid calcium?

"Have you noticed any changes with Biotin?"

I have not really noticed any change since adding high doses of additional Biotin to my daily regimen. I was not aware at the time when I started this diet that grass fed meats and the other foods I consume are naturally high in Biotin. In fact, grass fed meat is naturally balanced when it comes to nutrition and that is one of the great benefits of eating them. Perhaps this is why the diet is so successful.

In any case, according to the study, it takes the better part of a year to feel the effects of Biotin. Time will tell...


3-4 hours of exercise is amazing! Elliot - how long have you had MS and are you RR? Thank you. :)
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Re: meat - How does it work?

Postby ElliotB » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Hi orphansparrow - I was diagnosed about 3 1/2 years ago, RRMS.
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