Try plant based diet: new study

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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby DancerMom » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:25 am

Thanks for the explanation. I did some reading about it and I also watched the YouTube video that was posted as a link. I considered talking to my GP about it, but is it worth checking homocysteine and MMA now that I have brought my serum B12 up to a solid level? I guess what I'm asking is, could doing these tests show something else that's "off" in me? Could they explain why I stil feel awful, actually worse than ever? I have had no improvement at all and I started B12 injections almost 4 months ago. Should I ask for these to be done? Thank you!
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby NHE » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:58 am

DancerMom wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I did some reading about it and I also watched the YouTube video that was posted as a link. I considered talking to my GP about it, but is it worth checking homocysteine and MMA now that I have brought my serum B12 up to a solid level? I guess what I'm asking is, could doing these tests show something else that's "off" in me? Could they explain why I stil feel awful, actually worse than ever? I have had no improvement at all and I started B12 injections almost 4 months ago. Should I ask for these to be done? Thank you!


Here are my thoughts. Since you've been on B12 injections for 4 months, an MMA test would likely not be of benefit. Homocysteine could still be elevated perhaps due to low folate and/or low B6. It might be worthwhile to test homocysteine and folate just to assess where you're at.

What might be more important is what type of B12 injection you're using. The most common form is cyanocobalamin. However, this form has a low retention rate in the body. Some people who have not responded to cyanocobalamin shots have done better with the hydroxocobalamin form. This type can easily be converted by the body into both active forms, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin (the latter of which is the primary form stored by the liver).

Keep in mind though that B12 is not an instant fix if you already have B12 deficiency induced neurological damage. Both B12 shots and sublingual supplements will likely give you an energy boost if you're B12 deficient and they should also stop the progression of B12 deficiency induced neurological damage. However, any existing damage caused by B12 deficiency will still take time to heal.

By the way, are you taking any methylfolate? B12 and methylfolate work together. Low RBC folate might potentially explain why you feel worse after bringing up your B12 levels.
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:33 am

NHE wrote:What might be more important is what type of B12 injection you're using. The most common form is cyanocobalamin. However, this form has a low retention rate in the body. Some people who have not responded to cyanocobalamin shots have done better with the hydroxocobalamin form. This type can easily be converted by the body into both active forms, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin (the latter of which is the primary form stored by the liver).

Treatment of vitamin B12 deficiency – methylcobalamin? Cyanocobalamin? Hydroxocobalamin? – Clearing the confusion. (2015)
K Thakkar, G Billa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25117994

Abstract
Vitamin B12 (cyancobalamin, Cbl) has two active co-enzyme forms, methylcobalamin (MeCbl) and adenosylcobalamin (AdCbl). There has been a paradigm shift in the treatment of vitamin B12 deficiency such that MeCbl is being extensively used and promoted. This is despite the fact that both MeCbl and AdCbl are essential and have distinct metabolic fates and functions. MeCbl is primarily involved along with folate in hematopiesis and development of the brain during childhood. Whereas deficiency of AdCbl disturbs the carbohydrate, fat and amino-acid metabolism, and hence interferes with the formation of myelin. Thereby, it is important to treat vitamin B12 deficiency with a combination of MeCbl and AdCbl or hydroxocobalamin or Cbl. Regarding the route, it has been proved that the oral route is comparable to the intramuscular route for rectifying vitamin B12 deficiency.


Full version:
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v69/ ... 14165a.pdf
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby DancerMom » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:58 pm

Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you. You have given me more information in 3 days than anyone else has for months. The information you shared and the links you provided gave me ideas of what to ask my doctors about. I hope to be able to come back later with a positive health update!
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:29 am

i think you already had a good b6 result dm, but folate info couldn't hurt. i would caution you against zeroing in too much on b12. it will be good to review your food/fluid journal info. key nutrients relevant to ms and potentially detrimentally affected by supplementing just b12 and d3 may come up. how's the journal going? i saw a study yesterday that made some conclusions based on a single day's dietary recall in i think it was 47 ms patients. i'm going off old experience, but a dietitian would ask for three days. two days at work and one day at home. with that you can get a decent sense of status quo. if you're a nine to fiver, you'll probably be all set to review by sunday :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby DancerMom » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:20 am

i have a previously scheduled appointment this week with my GP for a monthly b12 shot and med check. I will talk to him about my concern with not feeling any better yet and ask about checking other nutrient levels. I will find out which type of b12 injection I have been getting. He is always open to looking at and trying new things but he has already told me that he highly suspects that I will end up with an ms diagnosis when more testing is done. Most days I tend to think there is more than vitamin deficiency as well but I want to be sure that I am doing everything I can to get better if possible. I am trying so hard to be proactive and to stay positive but some days are such a struggle. I have 6 days of food journaled so far to share with him as well. Thanks for your help and support.
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:32 am

hey there :) you may want to ask your GP for a referral to a dietitian. i say this because ime it has always been an uphill battle getting docs to look at the nutrition piece. AND, standard tests miss a lot of the nuances and can be misinterpreted if you don't know what you're looking for

if you're comfortable sharing all or part of your journal you could pm to me.

you can also order your own tests through lifeextension or similar, if you don't get buy-in from the doc. besides b12, serum zinc and serum ferritin are relevant as a vegan, plus serum magnesium in context of having had to work on low vit d3. as a vegan, i would not expect folate to be a likely culprit, but your food journal would help illuminate that aspect as well. folate foods list http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
intakes are one piece of the puzzle, combinations and interactions another.

test info and prices:
http://www.lifeextension.com/Vitamins-S ... Blood-Test
http://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-s ... blood-test
http://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-s ... blood-test
you can just look up whichever test to get the prices.

sample test result interp issue - normal range for mag likely to be wide, and low. 'normal' tends to vary lab to lab, but usually you want to be in the top half of normal at least.

hope that helps :) any questions just say
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:51 pm

dm it just occurred to me that this study about d3 and toxins (details via link below, i had posted it to a different topic the other day) may be of interest to you in particular. given your recent efforts to improve vit d3 status, without the docs necessarily investigating status of relevant mineral cofactors, followed by feeling worse after repletion.

natural-approach-f27/topic18559-975.html#p243950
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby orphansparrow » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:11 pm

@jimmylegs I am SO thankful you are here. I have learned a lot, and have found a lot of reassurance through the things you write. I don't know what people do who just listen to their doctors. :( By the way...did you say you are not taking drugs?
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Re: Try plant based diet: new study

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:23 am

hi orphan sorry just spotted your post now. glad you find value in posts here at tims :) you are correct no ms drugs to date. ten years post dx and i don't regret it so far.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Posts: 10428
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

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