This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

[cheerleader]

We've been discussing iron and its role in endothelial damage in the general thread- and I wanted to list the supplements in this protocol which are known iron chelators, these bind free iron in the blood thru the digestive tract and liver and excrete it:

Bioflavonoids (what gives fruits and leaves their color):
Quercetin (onions and apples), EGCG (green tea) and resveratrol
Phytic acid: found in whole grains, sesame, rice brain, seeds and nuts

Most important, a healthy liver! Milk thistle (silymarin) helps the liver cells handle all of the extra iron and toxins that come thru- outward signs such as petechia, varicose veins, rashes, jaundice and high liver enzymes all speak of an overwhelmed liver.

AC

[DIM]

Cheer if you remember my wife has had high liver enzymes months ago, since then she takes NAC and Milk Thistle except her usual regimen, moreover she has brown spots in her face before her diagnosis.
Guess what?
Now that her liver enzymes are normal her brown spots have almost dissaperad (along with a natural cream that contains vit, C-E and pycnogenol) so I am completely sure there is a connection between liver health-endothelium function and iron overload as excess iron could cause brown spots!

[cheerleader]

Cheer if you remember my wife has had high liver enzymes months ago, since then she takes NAC and Milk Thistle except her usual regimen, moreover she has brown spots in her face before her diagnosis.
Guess what?
Now that her liver enzymes are normal her brown spots have almost dissaperad (along with a natural cream that contains vit, C-E and pycnogenol) so I am completely sure there is a connection between liver health-endothelium function and iron overload as excess iron could cause brown spots!

Bingo, Dmitris! Glad you found the connection-
AC

[cheerleader]

The Endothelial Dysfunction Home Game
Fun for everyone!

Before you begin the game- a caveat...I am not a doctor, not a scientist, not even good at math. But if you like those magazine surveys (“How good a friend are you?” “What’s your EQ?” “What’s your real age?”) then feel free to play this, too.

Damage to the endothelium....
Add up your points for each of the following in the plus (+) column:

I smoke (everyday) +3
I smoke a few times a week +2
I’m a heavy drinker (everyday) +3
I’m a moderate drinker (3 times a week) +2
I’m a veteran +2
I’ve had/still have mono/EBV +3
I’ve had/still got cpn +3
I’ve got high blood pressure +3
I’ve got high cholesterol +3
I’m a diabetic +3
I have coeliac disease +2
I’ve got gingivitis +2
I’ve got mercury/amalgam fillings +2
I never see the sun +3
I never exercise +3
I have sleep apnea/insomnia +3
I get migraines +2
I have petechiae (leg spots) variscose veins, funny spots +2
I’ve had high liver enzymes +1
I eat red meat (yum!) +1
I have a major sweet tooth (and indulge) +1
I am under constant stress from life/work +3
I live within 5 miles of a major freeway/highway +2
I use pesticides/fertilizers +2
I live within 5 miles of a smelting mine,oil refinery, superfund site +3
I live at a high altitude (over 2000ft. above sea level) +2
I live near high power lines +2
I use plastic products regularly (to eat from/drink/etc.) +1

Now for the minus column (-)
I exercise everyday -3
I exercise 3 times a week -2
I use antioxidant supplements -2
I meditate/practice yoga/tai chi -2
I take a vitamin D supplement -2
I take a B-12 supplement -2
I take a vasodilator (LDN, bloodpressure med., herbs) -2
I eat organic produce -1
I use a liver cleanse -1
I laugh regularly -1
I don't let stuff get to me -1
I don’t eat red meat or saturated fats -2
I don’t smoke, drink, only eat nuts and berries, live in the wilderness, work outside making arts and crafts projects while small animals do my housework and we sing lovely melodies and dance!!! -25

There, now add up your columns. I'm at +4 for endothelial dysfunction and Jeff is at +9, even with all we've been doing. Still some more work to do. Maybe I can find some small animals to help us.

Remember, the theory is that endothelial dysfunction is a modern disease of our industrialized society- which allows a breech in the blood brain barrier. What ends up leaking thru the vessels can still vary from MS patient to MS patient. The amount of endothelial dysfunction (as measured by microparticles in the blood) is higher in MSers during relapse or in the progressive phase. ED does not cause MS...but it allows it to progress.

Post your numbers if you want to...let me know your thoughts.
AC

[DIM]

Cheer you loose, wife has a score below zero at least this period of her life...

[gainsbourg]

+6

also I found this August 2008 article:

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 7708000856

Elevated concentrations of iron were found in the skin affected by venous hypertension and also in the areas of brain with multiple sclerosis lesions. Individuals with hemochromatosis gene (HFE) mutations: C282Y and H63D, which result in a less efficient transport of iron by macrophages, are characterized by an increased risk for venous leg ulcer and multiple sclerosis

Under normal conditions excessive accumulation of T cells cannot take place, because nitric oxide and interferon-gamma drive these cells toward apoptosis. However, in tissues with a high concentration of iron, T lymphocytes proliferate instead of undergoing apoptosis

chelators, administered systemically or locally, should potentially exhibit therapeutic and prophylactic activity against venous leg ulcers and multiple sclerosis

[jimmylegs]

i came out to zero :S lol

[cheerleader]

i came out to zero :S lol

Hey, JL and Dim's wife are healed!!!
But seriously, I do think that stability and lack of MS flares might be tied to healthy living and healing the endothelium, and that the goal of 0 on the dysfunction scale is a good one.
The iron issue is surely an important one, Gains....as well as oxidative stress.
Here's to zeros for all! (even me!)
AC

[Abe]

Great thread Cheer.

Thanks for sharing!

[cheerleader]

Dignan has been posting some wonderful research by an Italian medical team headed by Dr. Zamboni (love the name!)

Zamboni used doppler technology to show that venous obstruction and reflux of blood flow was present in all the MSers he scanned. In primary progressive, the obstructions were in the veins along the spine. In RRMS, the obstructions were in the brain. I'm copying the info over here, because it shows some more research into the vascular connection to MS-
Thanks to Dignan for finding more fuel for this little blaze. God, I love the internet.

Here's the link to the discussion on Zamboni's research. It was posted on the "Iron" thread.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-5671-day ... sc-60.html

Here's the link to Zamboni's research-
on Chronic cerebrospinal insufficiency in MS
http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/jnnp.2008.157164v1

If venous blockage is truly the first step that begins the MS cascade of inflammation and demyelination, we need to collectively look at the ways to get blood flowing.

[CureOrBust]

IS there any treatment to reverse "Chronic cerebrospinal insufficiency"?

[cheerleader]

IS there any treatment to reverse "Chronic cerebrospinal insufficiency"?

Believe me, Cure...that's been the google this afternoon.
Found lots on horse chestnut, ginko and pinebark as treatment for vascular insufficiency and coagulation issues....mostly in studies on varicose veins and lower extremities. I'm sure it would work in cerebral situations as well. Also anticoagulants like warfarin and heparin. As well as exercise and diet. Looks like the endothelial health program...

Some of the surgical options for vascular insufficiency in the legs might not be an option for the veins in the cerebrospinal areas....such as ablation, scleropathy and vein stripping....but I could be wrong. I think the first thing is to locate the venous blockage, by ultrasound or doppler-not sure if vascular docs ever do this in different areas.

chronic venous insufficiency

more to come...
AC

[cheerleader]

another relief for venous insufficiency and MS...pregnancy.

Women in their 3rd trimester have almost no MS symptoms, and vein dilation. I do not think this is mere coincidence-

Results eleven women had reflux and varicose veins demonstrated at first scan. All veins dilated with increasing gestation. This was maximal in the superficial system, reaching significance (p≤0.05) in the right long saphenous, superficial femoral and posterior tibial veins, left long and short saphenous, popliteal, peroneal, anterior and posterior tibial veins.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 8499908705

Back in 1986, Dr. Schelling of Austria was positing that MS was caused by venous reflux into the spine and brain. He had no way of measuring this...but now with the color doppler technology, we can see he was right.

The importance of elucidating the neuropathological and clinical implications of undue reflux into the skull or spine is deduced from the probability of relations between localized backflow into the craniovertebral space and unexplicated cerebrospinal diseases. In this regard the features of multiple sclerosis are discussed.

I am thinking of finding a local vascular doc to do a handheld scan on Jeff's spine and cervical area. Not sure if a consult with a haematologist would be necessary, as well. As I've said before, he's been doing much better with his endothelial health protocol, which would also serve to dilate blood vessels and bind free radicals, BUT I'm not sure this is enough to arrest MS progression. If there's anything else possible, or any local docs who may consider the research of Zamboni...it's worth the effort.
AC

[CureOrBust]

I am wondering, have you all managed to find the FULL article? I got my hands on a copy, and its a bit of a "mind-blower" It REALLY deserves its own thread. If these results are repeatable and ARE what the writers believe to be true, and I am understanding it correctly, WHOA!

The article discusses "physical blockages" in major drainage pathways to the CNS, with images! and it may differ between RRMS to SPMS to PPMS, and... and... their non MS controls including OND had 0 defects and... and...

I am thinking of finding a local vascular doc to do a handheld scan on Jeff's spine and cervical area. Not sure if a consult with a haematologist would be necessary, as well.

Have you seen the actual article itself? it explicitly talks of the two diagnostic methods used, and the amazing results they were seeing.

PS: I am definitely looking into the first non-invasive test (ultrasound / doppler). They explicitly provide what I would think are detailed explanations of what is measured.

[cheerleader]

Yes..I read the entire paper, Cure. I downloaded the j-peg, gasping. Then my head exploded. !!!!!!

I think Dignan should start the thread on the General Board, since Zamboni is his find. (How did he find this????) I'll PM him and ask him to do the honors. But if he doesn't, I'll post it.

In EVERY single one of the MS patients, there was venous reflux and blockage in the veins. !!!! Not ONE of the healthy controls had this.
Also, the PPMSers had the blockage in the lumbar and spinal areas, and the RRMSers had blockages in the cervical spine and cerebral areas. I mean, this is huge. It is not coincidental. And it goes against everything the neuros are claiming....If MS truly is a vascular disease, and not autoimmune, lots of people will be losing money. And the establishment will not be happy. (But we will....)

I did see the two screening methods, and Zamboni's team recommends that all CIS patients have the doppler/ultrasound non-invasive testing. I gotta find it locally for Jeff. I'm assuming that vascular docs would have the hand held units Zamboni's team used.
later...
AC