My Regimen (any tweaks?)

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

My Regimen (any tweaks?)

Postby Abe » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:03 am

before breakfast:
1200mg NAC
500mg Vitamin C
1000mg Inosine

at breakfast:
200mg Resveratrol
300mg R Lipoic Acid
500mg Acetyl -L-Carnitine
350mg EGCG
100mg CoQ10
200mg Milk Thistle
60mg Gingko Gold
7gr High quality omega 3 from fish oil
400mg Vitamin E
5000 IU Vitamin A
B-100 Pill

at lunch
200mg Resveratrol
300mg R Lipoic Acid
500mg Acetyl-L-Carnitine
350mg EGCG
100mg CoQ10
200mg Milk Thistle
60mg Gingko Gold
400mg Magnesium
1000mg Calcium
15mg Zinc
10000 IU Vitamin D3

at dinner
200mg Resveratrol
300mg R Lipoic Acid
500mg Acetyl -L- Carnitine
350mg EGCG
100mg CoQ10
200mg Milk Thistle
400mg Vitamin E
133mg Magnesium
333mg Calcium
5mg Zinc
1500mg Curcumin

before bed:
1200mg NAC
500mg Vitamin C
1000mg Inosine
3mg Melatonin (Sublingual)

additional:
Vitamin B12 (Sublingual)

30 mins aerobic exercise 3 to 4 times a week.
Green tea as beverage of choice, plus lots of water.
Regular meditation.
Jelinek / Swank / Low GI - diet modified to my tastes and needs. I eat lots of fresh vegatable with a low sugar content; salmon, sardines, walnuts ect. I try not to eat saturated and any trans fats.

I have been mildly symptomatic for about 4 years. Realised I had the beginnings of MS about 2 years ago. I started this regimen 2 years ago. My symptoms have remained mild and I still do not have a formal diagnosis. I am 28 years old and male.

I am working very hard to keep the disease at bay!

What do you guys think of my regimen? I am concerned that I could be taking too many antioxidants and fall prey to a 'double edged sword' - prehaps by placing my body under 'reductive stress'. Also I wonder if I am taking too much vitamin D and not the right proportions of calcium, magnesium and zinc.

Do not be shy if you feel any part of my regimen is unsafe or could be better - pipe up!

Thanks to everyone who has published their regimen and contributed to the forum I am always learning so much from you all. :D

Kind wishes, Abe
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Postby lionheart » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:50 am

From your post I get the impression that you haven't been dx-d yet, did i get it right?

I am not well acquainted with the take of all these supplements, yours as well as Dim's seem a lot too many to me.. I must confess that all of them are good and still, I want to learn of a doctor who has interfered as well...and has given their advice.

Who says how much is necessary and safe?
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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:03 am

hi there, your interest, and exercise and relaxation and hydration regimen all sound fantastic. as far as your supplements go, i don't know anything about NAC, reservatrol, acetyl l carnitine, ecgc (ok well i know a bit but don't take it).

i do know that in 2006 when i did the kind of prep work you've done and took the list (okay spreadsheet) to my diagnosing neurologist at the ms clinic at mcmaster, he looked at it for about three seconds and handed it back to me - i think his exact words were... "hmm, take the D... NEXT" okay not the 'next' part but that's essentially it. however, i would hope that if he had somehow spotted something iffy, he would have let me know that i was overdoing it somewhere.

my liver pills have 5000mg milk thistle and 50mg ALA. i don't take those every single day, and not even with every meal as the bottle instructs - just maybe one a day while i go through a bottle and then take a break.

i never did get my hands on any inosine. i am working the zinc angle instead and have yet to see if it's helped get my uric acid levels up there. remember optimal for UA in healthy controls is 290.

ginkgo looks fine, esp with all the liquids you're getting

re the vit E i assume you mean IU not mg - and at 800IU per day you're well under any upper limits.

as for coq10 i have taken this, but my leanings are to discover what the body makes it from, and support that process. because there are so many other processes that could be affected if our basic ingredients for making coq10 ourselves, are not quite up to the levels needed.

b100 daily looks good

"7gr High quality omega 3 from fish oil"
really??? what are the d3 and A levels in those puppies?!

mag timing looks pretty good, some with the d3, some separately... i'd refer you to the folks in the links in my signature for dosing but you are pretty much there...

calcium and zinc look not too bad...

the d3 amount should be good if you're trying to elevate your current level, do you know where you're at and what you're heading for? the research consensus so far is 4000IU/d for maintenance (and i would say that's for winter northern maintenance of course)

i don't take curcumin but it's all good, i don't know anything about dosing for that

i don't take melatonin so i don't know... there are links with your b12 status and melatonin. some folks here reported trouble sleeping and they were taking 2000mcg b12 in the morning. when they moved it later in the day it helped.
READ ME key info on nutrient targets - www.thisisms.com/ftopict-2489.html
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Postby Abe » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:21 pm

lionheart wrote:From your post I get the impression that you haven't been dx-d yet, did i get it right?

I am not well acquainted with the take of all these supplements, yours as well as Dim's seem a lot too many to me.. I must confess that all of them are good and still, I want to learn of a doctor who has interfered as well...and has given their advice.

Who says how much is necessary and safe?


Hi Lionheart,

That's right, I do not have a formal diagnosis.

I based my regime on my own extensive Internet research, David Wheldon's website, information gathered in this forum and the following books:

Taking Control of Multiple Sclerosis: Natural and Medical Therapies to Prevent Its Progression (Paperback)
by George Jelinek (Author)

The MS Solution: How I Solved the Puzzle of My Multiple Sclerosis (Paperback)
by Kathryn R. Simpson (Author), M.S. (Author)

Healing Multiple Sclerosis: Diet, Detox & Nutritional Makeover for Total Recovery (Paperback)
by Ann Boroch (Author), Ann Louise Gittleman (Foreword)

.......

I worked out the dosages through pubmed research, though of course guesswork has been involved. Sadly nobody has the answers. However health debate here is important.

BTW George Jelinek's book is especially helpful (and he is not too big on supplements)

Abe
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Postby Abe » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:25 pm

jimmylegs wrote:
"7gr High quality omega 3 from fish oil"
really??? what are the d3 and A levels in those puppies?!


Fish oil not cod liver oil! Fish oil has no D or A just a little E to keep the omega 3's in good condition.

jimmylegs wrote:i don't take melatonin so i don't know... there are links with your b12 status and melatonin. some folks here reported trouble sleeping and they were taking 2000mcg b12 in the morning. when they moved it later in the day it helped.


Interesting I will investigate the relationship between B12 and Melatonin.

Thanks, Abe
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Postby DIM » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:38 pm

First of all congratulations, your regimen is perfect.
Some personal suggestions for our conversation:
-Don't take any amino acid with food as food proteins reduce their absorption especially for non essential amino acids as ALCAR and NAC are!
-Take Magnesium away from Calcium, they interfere.
-Don't take EGCG or other plant antioxidants with food or minerals as they are iron chelators (and reduce other mineral absorption say calcium).
-Reduce NAC, no need for more than 1200-1500mg according to some researches and check regurarly uric acid levels, wife's increased remarkably to high normal levels with 1500mg inosine and you don't want to cause gout.
-Probably reduce vitamin A dosage (or check levels), although I started with 5000mg/day I reduce the dosage to 5000mg 4-5 times per week, vit A is quite toxic!
-Increase Zinc to 25-45mg/day and check your levels, take half vit C with lunch-half with dinner, you can't absorb more than 200-250mg each time.
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:55 pm

Hey Abe...
Good for you for being so proactive. I didn't realize you were pre-diagnosis. Wow! I wish I'd known all I know now about three years ago. May you never be CDMS.

I agree with Dmitris on the EGCG apart from food. Jeff takes EGCG with quercetin in between breakfast/lunch and lunch/dinner. Acts as a chelator and extra energy booster.

Also don't see any DHEA on your list, but at 28, your hormonal levels are probably great. Maybe get a hormone panel test next time you get blood work done. We've found 25 mg. DHEA (the precursor for hormones) has helped Jeff keep testosterone levels high normal at 45 years old.

Thanks for sharing your program with us-
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby DIM » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:08 pm

...so this rises my question Cheer, today I took wife's thyroid bloodwork that came with very high TSH (7.5 when normal is 2-5) and low normal T3(1 when normal is 0.8-2) - T4 (0.9 when normal is 0.8-2). This translates to an overworking pituitary gland to produce TSH in order to boost the underworking thyroid gland to produce more T4-T3!
As EGCG promotes fluorine absorption and contains high amounts of fluorine this could be the reason for her thyroid values, I mean is the increased fluorine absorption that reduces iodine uptake and causes the hypothyroidism?
Or could one of her other recently added supplements (say quercetin) affect her thyroid?
Her previous thyroid tests two years now are normal and the one after she started EGCG-quercetin supplementation is abnormal...

Moreover she has high normal iron-TIBC and 3.5 ferritin when normal is from 5-200!
From what have searched there is no iron abnormality where iron-TIBC are high normal and feritin low, interesting ah?
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Postby cheerleader » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:51 pm

Dmitris,
I'd back off the EGCG for a bit, and try giving her a sea kelp iodine supplement and see if her thyroid numbers can reach normal levels again....I don't think quercetin would affect the thyroid gland. I am hypothyroid since birth of my son, and I take armour thyroid supplementation, but my hypothyroidism developed over several years. My TSH was 15 at its worst, it's normal now. The iodine in sea kelp has been helpful.

I still do not understand iron levels...afraid I'm no help, there! Jeff continues to work too much, but he's almost done with a couple of projects, and will have a break in mid-March. His left foot has a numb patch that comes and goes, but he's hanging in there. Thanks for asking, and good luck getting your wife's thyroid back to normal.
AC
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby CureOrBust » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:25 pm

Melatonin is not universally recommended by everyone. It is not suggested for people with autoimmune conditions, and you have yet to receive a diagnosis. So, even if your in the "MS is not autoimmune" camp, you may end up with a different diagnosis, that is auto-immune.
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Postby daverestonvirginia » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:04 pm

10000 IU Vitamin D3 per day seems a little high to me. I have found the only way to figure out how much vitamin d a person needs is to get your level checked every 6 months for the first couple years. Because everyone is different a 10000 IU Vitamin D3 dose a day might be fine, but that would be way too much for me. See

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseact ... &pageid=39

for the levels you should be looking for. good luck
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Postby Abe » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:55 am

DIM wrote:-Don't take any amino acid with food as food proteins reduce their absorption especially for non essential amino acids as ALCAR and NAC are!
-Take Magnesium away from Calcium, they interfere.
-Don't take EGCG or other plant antioxidants with food or minerals as they are iron chelators (and reduce other mineral absorption say calcium).
-Reduce NAC, no need for more than 1200-1500mg according to some researches and check regurarly uric acid levels, wife's increased remarkably to high normal levels with 1500mg inosine and you don't want to cause gout.
-Probably reduce vitamin A dosage (or check levels), although I started with 5000mg/day I reduce the dosage to 5000mg 4-5 times per week, vit A is quite toxic!
-Increase Zinc to 25-45mg/day and check your levels, take half vit C with lunch-half with dinner, you can't absorb more than 200-250mg each time.


Excellent advice DIM. I have implemented everything. Your knowledge is exceptional. Thank you!
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Postby Abe » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:10 am

Hello Cheer,

Thank you, never being diagnosed as CDMS would be magical. However I am not sure how possible it really is without access to more significant medication and monitoring of my levels of different hormones and nutrients.

A very interesting book is:

Fantastic Voyage: Live Long Enough to Live Forever (Hardcover)
by Raymond Kurzweil (Author), Terry Grossman (Author)

I came across it because I was looking into Raymond Kurzweil (I am a composer of electronic and classical music and I was researching an old electric instrument that a friend was selling). It turned out that Mr Kurzweil was far more interesting than the instrument. He was diagnosed with Diabetes then reversed the diagnosis and has now almost halted his biological ageing. His regimen is quite extraordinary. I recommend the book to you.

CureOrBust wrote:Melatonin is not universally recommended by everyone. It is not suggested for people with autoimmune conditions, and you have yet to receive a diagnosis.


Hello Cure,

Thank you for your advice. My doctor has informed me that he is almost certain that I am developing MS and to take measures, he is a competent man. I have decided to drop my dosage of Melatonin to 1.5 grams (in line with Kathryn R. Simpson's advice) and invested in a blackout blind for my bedroom. I have also elevated the head of my bed slightly (I just had a peek through your posts).

Abe
Last edited by Abe on Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Abe » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:14 am

daverestonvirginia wrote:10000 IU Vitamin D3 per day seems a little high to me. I have found the only way to figure out how much vitamin d a person needs is to get your level checked every 6 months for the first couple years. Because everyone is different a 10000 IU Vitamin D3 dose a day might be fine, but that would be way too much for me. See

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseact ... &pageid=39

for the levels you should be looking for. good luck


Indeed Dave,

I would very much like to check my levels of vitamin D however this service is not possible through the formal health system in the UK.

If anyone has had their vitamin D level checked in the UK please get in contact.

Thanks, Abe
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Postby DIM » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:30 am

Abe I have some kind of nutritional education years ago but now I work as computer engineering in University thus I forgot almost everything.

cheerleader wrote:Dmitris,
I'd back off the EGCG for a bit, and try giving her a sea kelp iodine supplement and see if her thyroid numbers can reach normal levels again....I don't think quercetin would affect the thyroid gland. I am hypothyroid since birth of my son, and I take armour thyroid supplementation, but my hypothyroidism developed over several years. My TSH was 15 at its worst, it's normal now. The iodine in sea kelp has been helpful.

I still do not understand iron levels...afraid I'm no help, there! Jeff continues to work too much, but he's almost done with a couple of projects, and will have a break in mid-March. His left foot has a numb patch that comes and goes, but he's hanging in there. Thanks for asking, and good luck getting your wife's thyroid back to normal.
AC

Cheer thanks for your suggestions.
I recently found that selenium itself "may" cause hypothyroidism although it is necessary with iodine and L-tyrosine for thyroid function, I give to my wife daily selenium but not iodine!
As EGCG, pycnogenol, milk thistle and quercetin are chelators not only for iron they contribute to other mineral excretion so although selenium due to supplementation may be at normal levels she may suffer from iodine depletion!
I'll start her iodine and ginseng today while have stoped EGCG and we'll see after two three weeks her blood tests.
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