Veterans and MS

A place for discussion related to MS and veterans.

Postby Minai » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:10 pm

Hi, Outlawbiker... do you think that there actually IS enough in the DOD's budget to do so? I mean it is a governmental entity--made up of masses, accountable to the masses, caring for the masses, etc. Sad, but so. Thus, can those who were not unwillingly drafted even claim "pawnship?" Am just hoping that such casualties as MS and ALS will somehow, some way, some day be fought against, and won too. And, I do think it possible and likely. But, through the private sector, not the DOD, you are right. :)
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Postby SarahLonglands » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:51 am

In the late fifties, my father, a regular soldier died from a cancer which started in the kidneys and spread. He was only 35, I was a year old. A few years previously he had been fighting in the far east. The first symptoms happened a few months after returning home. It is as unlikely that he developed cancer as a result of being in the army as any army or ex-army person who now develops MS after fighting in certain places.

It is always sad when anyone develops such a disease and the knee-jerk action is to ask why. You might show the first symptoms after a hepatitis vaccine, for instance, but that doesn't mean it caused the disease. You have to be genetically predisposed to start with, never mind anything else like the right infective trigger then anything else that comes along afterwards like vaccines or whatever else which might push you over the edge.

I, for example, had my first reported symptom when I was 24: a slight numbness in my left leg. It was noted in great detail by my GP at the time, who even drew a diagram of my leg, showing exactly where the numbness was. I was 30 before my next, much more severe symptom and I might easily have forgotten all about the first, it came and went so quickly. At the time of my second I was working with many toxic substances and maybe took my mask off too soon. If I had forgotten about the first incident I could have blamed this for causing my MS, especially if I had been working for someone else and not myself.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby sojourner » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:32 am

I apologize that I haven't read this entire thread........so if I am not relevant ignore me--- 8O, but I think even before the Gulf War the incidence of MS in the military was higher than average.

Could we all be ignoring the other commonality that military recruits share?.......that is Basic Training. Field time has its hazards and one of the biggest ones is that little Borellia bug that lurks in the gut of ticks on MANY a U.S. military base.

I know that my husband was exposed to many of these buggers on a base that Uncle Sam now declares as a HIGH RISK lyme area. But it really is not that simple.....as others have stated. It probably also has to do with genetic suseptibility, multiple exposures, a milieu of other co-infections, exposure to other environmental toxins, or possibly strain variability of the bacteria itself.

It's no wonder know one has definitively figured this out yet......it's like a math equation with too many variables. I can find x and y but don't ask me to go on to z, I get lost there.
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Postby Outlawbiker » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:10 pm

Minai wrote:
Hey Vets,

Just received this url via my military e-mail:

http://www.millenniumcohort.org/index.php

Do you think it worth participating in?

Outlawbiker wrote:

I'm not sure. Every time I see something like this that was initiated by the DoD first smells rotten to me. It seems to me that they've always done things to avoid accountability and save $$ rather than legitimately attempting to care for their "pawns" after they've been used.

IMHO



Sarah(Anecdote),

Minai's reply after that was more about the DoD's questionable motive(s) for soliciting prior service members to join this study.

Genetic predesposition/susceptability for individuals who may have never developed the autoimmune (theoretical as well) disease called MS may have NEVER have had that trigger pulled without the possible immune system overload (myriad of vaccinations) experienced by recruits at induction through basic training. Not to mention the physical extremes the body has to endure along with the sleep deprivation etc.

After basic training, depending on where future assignments may take a service member, more vaccinations or drugs are given. Bootcamp is only "baby steps" in comparison to what our troops have had to and are enduring at this very moment. War doesn't have to be "officially" declared to end up similar conditions.

The numbers of service members whether Veterans or currently Active duty who are being diagnosed with MS and other "autoimmune" diseases/disorders has got to be disproportionate in comparison to the rest of the American population. Why else would the Department of Defense of the United States be initiating such a study? They weren't asking Brit, Canadian, or Portugese military vet's to enroll.

You wrote you were a year old when your father passed? Was he in the military during, before or after you were conceived? Male Vietnam Veteran's children have been born with birth defects including Spina Bifida. Genetically speaking, you too may have a link to this as well.


Regardless as to why we that HAVE it have it. Hopefully a cure will be found in our lifetime. And just as hopefully, the tigger or combination of triggers can be identified and if at all possible be avoided by those with the genetic defect and more vulnerable to getting it too.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:42 am

Outlawbiker,

My father fought in WW2 so was in the army for years and years before I was conceived!

Like Minai I happen to think that MS is not an autoimmune disease, but is caused by an infection, chlamydia pneumoniae, which most people will come across but will only affect people genetically predisposed to it. That is my genetic link, not the fact that my father was in the military.

Incidentally, my mother was as well and her father, who was a colonel. It runs in the blood but I decided on the artistic life!

Also, though it was aggressively progressive my MS is in full retreat with the antibiotics. I have had no MS event for these last four years. This maybe is the cure.

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Bacterial toxins and Multiple Sclerosis

Postby gwa » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:51 am

Sarah,

I just read this post on the msdiagnosed forum and thought it might make your day. I couldn't get the link to work, so have had to include the post instead.

Do you know anything about this research?

gwa


" Bacterial toxins and multiple sclerosis J Neurol Sci. 2007 Aug 17; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles


Bacterial toxins and Multiple Sclerosis.

Gay F.

Cambridge Biostability, NIAB, Huntingdon Road, Cambridge, CB3 OLE, UK.

The primary pathogenetic mechanism responsible for the distinctive demyelinating lesions in the Central Nervous System (CNS) in Multiple Sclerosis (MS), first described in remarkable detail by Charcot more than 170 years ago, remains one of the most baffling conundrums in medicine. A possible role for bacterial cell molecules and transportable proteins in the pathogenesis of MS is reviewed. The ability of bacterial toxins to distort immunity and to cause distinctive toxic damage in the nervous system is discussed in the light of largely forgotten data linking bacterial nasopharyngeal infections with optic neuritis, optochiasmatic arachnoiditis and MS. While the blood-brain barrier substantially protects the CNS from hematogenous toxins, there is a route by which the barrier may be by-passed. Data is reviewed which shows that the CSF and extra-cellular fluid circulation is bi-directionally linked to the lymphatic drainage channels of the nasopharyngeal mucosa. While this provides a facility by which the CNS may mount immunological responses to antigenic challenges from within, it is also a route by which products of nasopharyngeal infection may drain into the CNS and be processed by the immune cells of the meninges and Virchow-Robin perivascular spaces. If potentially toxic bacterial products are identified in early MS tissues at these sites, this would provide an entirely new insight into the pathogenetic mechanisms of this frustratingly enigmatic disease.

PMID: 17707408 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]"
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Postby SarahLonglands » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:52 am

This sounds quite interesting, but no, I hadn't heard anything about it. Cambridge Biostability is a private company at the Science Park, working on "Completely Stable and Instantly Injectable Drugs for the 21!st Century" and I think they must be keeping things to themselves, rather than sharing knowledge, which is more common in academic circles. Since they are only at the "if" stage, it seems a long time before they come to any conclusions. Much better, I think to be a willing guinea pig in this case. At least, though, they are talking about certain toxic bacterial products, rather than viral products, which is a start.

Sarah :?
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby speedbird » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:03 pm

largely forgotten data linking bacterial nasopharyngeal infections


Also some similarity with the association of recurrent sinusitis in many cases of MS - and in my case too. Do you think that they have found DW's excellent site as well as CPn Help.org :?:
Progressive MS dx. 12/06. Currently on CAP for CPN: Wheldon protocol. LDN 4.5ml.
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Postby SarahLonglands » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:24 am

Maybe, but knowing how long these things take to first be researched and then accepted for publication, I wouldn't bank on it. David and Stratton have a piece which was accepted in January but isn't going to be published until the next edition of the journal and that is only a review piece!

Sarah
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby Outlawbiker » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:38 pm

Anecdote wrote:Outlawbiker,

My father fought in WW2 so was in the army for years and years before I was conceived!

Like Minai I happen to think that MS is not an autoimmune disease, but is caused by an infection, chlamydia pneumoniae, which most people will come across but will only affect people genetically predisposed to it. That is my genetic link, not the fact that my father was in the military.

Incidentally, my mother was as well and her father, who was a colonel. It runs in the blood but I decided on the artistic life!

Also, though it was aggressively progressive my MS is in full retreat with the antibiotics. I have had no MS event for these last four years. This maybe is the cure.

Sarah


That sounds wonderful for you. I'm always glad to hear great news like yours. I've not had a relapse since 2000 (the year I was diagnosed) I've had chronic sinus trouble since moving to the northeastern United States in '94 but had symptoms of MS prior to the move. It is pretty weird how prevalent sinus/nasopharyngeal infections are to folks with MS. I always thought it was because some nerve damage from MS caused problems with swallowing and functions in that area affecting proper drainage of fluids. A " Chicken or the Egg" kind of thing.

As for an infection (bacterial or viral) starting the cascade of events culminating in MS............. I think it's very likely. Putting out the forest fire doesn't instantly bring back the trees and the grass though. Sometimes the terrain errodes in the following storms and nothing but bare rock is left. That being said, the multiple inactive lesions revealed im my MRI's over the years have shown no changes. None were active in every scan. (4 - one set every 2 years since 2000.)


I pose this question to all the Veterans reading this thread:

About the second or third week of basic training, I came down with what seemed like a perpetual series of colds none of which were severe but added to the discomforts of our worlds turned upside down. Did YOU?

I figured it was because we (all the recruits) came into basic training from all over the country. Everyone of us carrying our regional "germ(s)" of the day. Living in a the barracks, extremely close proximity, lining up for everything..... remember "nut to butt!" so they could fit everybody into a hallway etc. to pick up uniforms, get your hair cropped off and of course all those vaccinations. We were a germapalooza!

Sarah, Your father having been in long before your conception fits the template of the Vietnam era Veterans who later had children with women not at all exposed to Agent Orange but the birth defects were there and the common link was the male veterans. My dad was in WWII as well. My parents didn't have me until 1966! Waaaaaayy after the war.

I'm not saying any of these things are the definate cause of OUR MS but, I'm not ruling anything out until the "FAT LADY SINGS" and the REAL cause(s) are known and or revealed. (DoD's new study is highly suspect that somebody somewhere knows something!)

This being the Veterans with MS thread of discussion, I thought I'd turn this ship back on course 'cause she was starting to drift....

8)
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Additional reason to suspect MREs

Postby lyndacarol » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:27 am

Upon re-reading Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes (an excellent book that I recommend repeatedly, I know) I found again the following section which points to a possible connection (for me anyway) between diet and modern chronic disease (including MS):

On pages 16-17:
Ancel Keys deserves the lion's share of credit for convincing us that cholesterol levels predict heart disease and that dietary fat is a killer. Keys ran the Laboratory of Physiological Hygiene at the University of Minnesota and considered it his franchise, as he would tell Time magazine, "to find out why people get sick before they got sick." He became famous during World War II by developing the K ration for combat troops--the "K", it is said, stood for "Keys". He spent the later war years doing the seminal study of human starvation, using conscientious objectors as his subjects. He then documented the experience, along with the world's accumulated knowledge on starvation, the The Biology of Human Starvation, a fourteen-hundred-page tome that cemented Keys's reputation. (I'll talk more about Keys's remarkable starvation study in chapter 15.)

Keys's abilities as a scientist are arguable--he was more often wrong than right--but his force of will was indomitable. Henry Blackburn, his longtime collaborator at Minnesota, described him as "frank to the point of bluntness, and critical to the point of sharpness." David Kritchevsky, who studied cholesterol metabolism at the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia and was a competitor, described Keys as "pretty ruthless" and not a likely winner of any "Mr. Congeniality" awards. Certainly, Keys was a relentless defender of his own hypotheses; he minced few words when he disagreed with a competitor's interpretation of the evidence, which was inevitably when the evidence disagreed with his hypothesis.

When Keys launched his crusade against heart disease in the late 1940s, most physicians who believed that heart disease was caused by diet implicated dietary cholesterol as the culprit. We ate too much cholesterol-laden food--meat and eggs, mostly--and that, it was said, elevated our blood cholesterol. Keys was the first to discredit this belief publicly, which had required, in any case, ignoring a certain amount of the evidence. In 1937, two Columbia University biochemists, David Rittenberg and Rudolph Schoenheimer, demonstrated that the cholesterol we eat has very little effect on the amount of cholesterol in our blood. When Keys fed men for months at a time on diets either high or low in cholesterol, it made no difference to their cholesterol levels. As a result, Keys insisted that dietary cholesterol had little relevance to heart disease. In this case, most researchers agree.


It is my suspicion that, in his strong belief that fat was bad for us, he designed K rations with less fat and, of necessity (for flavor probably), increased carbohydrate levels. I suspect that this military diet of more carbs (and less fat and protein) could trigger greater insulin secretion (remember, my angle!) which leads to heart disease, diabetes, other chronic diseases, including MS.
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Postby Outlawbiker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:29 pm

Hmmm, My diet has pretty much been I eat what I want when I want most of my life. In the Navy, k rations etc were pretty non existent. As much as I hate to say it, we always had decent hot cooked meals. Maybe that milk we picked up overseas in the boxes like the juice boxes of today might have been questionable. The fact that they had no expiration date on them and required no refrigeration 8O made it a spooky product.

I've always been a skinny fella even when I used to eat a pint of Ben&Jerry's Ice cream every night for at least ten years ('97) before my dx in 2000. My wife hated that my metabolism is so high that no fat sticks to my bones! I quit doing that last year after reading results of a study that focused on people like me. Long story short, it stated that just because no fat was visibly stored in the usual areas (belly, rear end etc.) it went on to state that it was quite possibly being stored around internal organs threatening normal function of them if the eating habits are not changed.

I'm not sure diet played a role in MY MS situation. I have to be honest though and say I've never really looked into that aspect of possibilities. I can't rule it out totally then.

I must apologize for not being around much. On October 18, '07 I was hit by a car while I was riding my motorcycle not even a block away from my home. I was in a school zone with the right of way when a woman stopped on a side street pulled out right in front of me attempting to make a left turn onto the street I was on. I ended up losing my right leg beneath the knee (R BKA) and have spent from the above date through December 15 in two different hospitals. I've been doing my dressing changes at home now waiting for the skin to finish healing on my "stump". It's taken an extensively longer period of time to heal as right after my first surgery ( I had 4 of them) the neurology team at the first hospital thought I may have been having an MS flare because my right hand and fingers would not function at all. They put me on steroids for 3 days before my own Neurologist from the VAMC Syracuse who happens to specialize in MS said it was a radial nerve injury to my arm and not an MS flare! I just had x-rays done last thursday which showed the bones in my stump mending to form a "bridge" kind of "U" shaped as my orthopedic surgeon intended it to heal in preparation for a prosthetic fitting down the road. Last night I fell on it as I fumbled in the dark on my crutches trying to get to the bathroom. As usual (I'd fallen twice before in hospital) I tried putting my now nonexistent foot down to stop my fall landing right on the very end. pain shot through my "stump" pretty bad but it has subsided quite a bit now. externally nothing appears worse for the wear but I'm worried that the fine bone that showed on the x-ray may have been fractured thus extending the time to finish healing? Ugh!! I'll have to get myself x-rayed again after this holiday weekend on Tuesday. Sooner if this slight pain still continues or worsens. Oh, and of course this isn't related to this topic at all. :roll:
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Postby Loriyas » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:47 pm

Wow Biker, I am so sorry this has happened to you. As if MS isn't enough, now this. It sounds like you are adapting and I wish you well with your recovery. Keep us posted on how you are doing.
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Re: Veterans and MS

Postby ssgwildbill » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:36 pm

Hi Family Member,
I am currently an active duty national guardsman and was diagnosed with MS in May of 2008. My first symptom was while I was deployed to Iraq in 2003. I am now currently going through a MEB/PEB board where I am sure they will find me not fit for duty. I have an LOD signed by personnel at the pentagon and hope that the VA and DOD help me. My state has been messing with me for the past 3+ years and now with only 15 years active duty I do not know what my future will be. I lost an E7 promotion back in Feb 09 due to my diagnosis and I am still very bitter about it. The personnel down at Ft. Riley, KS told me that I will be discharged within 294 & 365 days. While at Ft. Riley, KS my PEBLO told me that MS is now considered the agent orange of OIF. I have heard alot about the VA looking into the possibility that the Anthrax vaccine may have something to do with MS but that has yet to be proven.
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Re: Veterans and MS

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:45 pm

ssgwildbill wrote:Hi Family Member,
I am currently an active duty national guardsman and was diagnosed with MS in May of 2008. My first symptom was while I was deployed to Iraq in 2003. I am now currently going through a MEB/PEB board where I am sure they will find me not fit for duty. I have an LOD signed by personnel at the pentagon and hope that the VA and DOD help me. My state has been messing with me for the past 3+ years and now with only 15 years active duty I do not know what my future will be. I lost an E7 promotion back in Feb 09 due to my diagnosis and I am still very bitter about it. The personnel down at Ft. Riley, KS told me that I will be discharged within 294 & 365 days. While at Ft. Riley, KS my PEBLO told me that MS is now considered the agent orange of OIF. I have heard alot about the VA looking into the possibility that the Anthrax vaccine may have something to do with MS but that has yet to be proven.


From my suspicion that excess insulin is involved in the MS cascade, I wonder if your diet while deployed to Iraq had more sugar and carbohydrates than you previously consumed.

Many people see improvements with diets that limit or avoid these carbohydrates; there are many diets out there now – you may find the story of Iowa City physician, Dr. Terry Wahls, and her dramatic improvements in MS interesting: http://www.TerryWahls.com
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