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CaliReader, thanks. The article reinforces, in part, my thinking as concerns the EBV/MS connection, but also raises new questions. The researchers looked for antibodies. Is it possible to carry the EB virus and not develop antibodies? If so, could whatever triggers MS simultaneously trigger a fight against EBV? As for now, I'll keep researching and recommending to my son to treat with an emphasis on mitigating effects of EBV.

grandsons4 wrote:CaliReader, thanks. The article reinforces, in part, my thinking as concerns the EBV/MS connection, but also raises new questions. The researchers looked for antibodies. Is it possible to carry the EB virus and not develop antibodies? If so, could whatever triggers MS simultaneously trigger a fight against EBV? As for now, I'll keep researching and recommending to my son to treat with an emphasis on mitigating effects of EBV.

GS4,
If you want even more mind tweaking re:ebv and ms. Look into ebv, MS, and Africa. According to my neuro, ms is relatively unheard of in Africa. There are two forms of ebv, ebv-a and ebv-b. The b type is common in Africa and is related to burkitts lymphoma. The a type is the westernized (?) version of ebv and is likely related to ms. Don't have time to dig up the papers again but they are out there!

I got both:( I remember my dr telling me about the two types and he said how unlucky I was as I got mono twice and 2 different types!

Hi,

I love that article. It's been quite a while since I've posted anything but this conversation has got me interested.

When I first started trying to sort myself out I noticed the large body of work that associated EBV with MS. Later I became aware of the work that looked at Peroxynitrite as a rather pernicious problem.

My approach to the EBV was to take 2x 500mg of Valacyclovir twice a day (see Avonex and Valtrex in the regimes forum). I did this for over 10 years and, for me, it was very successful. I can understand the problems you have had taking it but I suspect your adverse reaction is due to how the Valtrex is reacting with other aspects of your general health rather than the EBV. You may need to ask the question-"what other bugs do I have as well?" You are on the right track but the path is often not clear.

The reason you should still aim to attack the EBV is mentioned in the article. The EBV infected B cells are immortalised by EBV and that is not good. Those cells give off an excess of Superoxide. In itself that's a radical but not the end of the world. The problem arises when Superoxide meets Nitric Oxide. There are two forms of Nitric Oxide- 1) Constitutive (good) and Inducible (Bad). Constitutive has two forms- 1) Neuronal and 2) Endothelial. Inducible Nitric Oxide arises in the absence of Constitutive Nitric Oxide. It is common at the sight of wounds and has a longer life than constitutive Nitric Oxide. If Superoxide meets Inducible Nitric Oxide there is a exponential expansion of the product Peroxynitrite.
Peroxynitrite does a lot of rotten things but the worst is it knocks out Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate, a central step in glycolysis and gluconeogenesis. This means you are short of phosphate required for ATP to drive the sodium -potassium pump in all your cells to create energy. Signs that this is happening are very low levels of non essential amino acids, low uric acid, elevated LDL levels etc.
I took so much Valtrex that I ended up with gout (because it's a purine). I was forced to relook at everything I did and eventually will get around to posting a long article.

In essence, to stay well, this is what I do now.

1x 300mg Resveratol on rising
1x large glass of pomegranate juice
2x really good probiotic tablets - or you will have a problem
A bowl of greek style natural yoghurt
3 boiled eggs

After half an hour

1 large freshly made carrot juice with a big chunk of fresh ginger

At night

A level teaspoon of L-Arginine powder in a glass of water- (tastes disgusting but this is critical)

450-600mg of Coenzyeme Q10 just before going to bed. (also critical)

I am amazingly well and rarely think of MS any more.

If I was you I would establish a base line using a Fasting Amino Acid test to see if your nonessential amino acids are low. I bet they are through the floor.

Regards

Scott1, hey: I'll preface my question with the statement that I am researching effective yet "low-risk/high-reward" treatments geared toward targeting the cause of my son's illness (recently diagnosed officially as MS) and/or the stabilization of MS mediated pathologies (in order to prevent further damage). It's apparent you're aware of the "gout-virtually no MS/MS-virtually no gout" conclusion reached in the review of military medical records. (Your experience would appear to confirm that connection.) Now, as concerns your statement, "Signs that this is happening are very low levels of non essential amino acids, low uric acid, elevated LDL levels etc.," do you believe the low uric acid level to be a result of uric acid depletion as it attempts to mop up the peroxynitrite (apparently what the Valacyclovir did). If this is so, what are your thoughts concerning supplementation with inosine, a precursor to uric acid. I understand the increased risks associated with high uric acid levels, but research was done with athletes at doses up to 6-10 g/d, with no ill effects. Side note: Copaxone and methylprednisolone also raise uric acid levels.

Hi,

The low uric acid arises from the disruption to the glycogenic cycle. In particular the way the Krebs cycle is affected. I would try to L-Arginine. 1 level teaspoon a day will end up being enough but if he is rather poorly then twice a day might be acceptable early on. If he starts getting palpitations then pull it back to one. You can miss a day or two without an adverse outcome. Equally importantly start on Coenzyme Q10. Some people say they get a mild discomfort to this so start at 150mg and increase by that amount every second day if nothing adverse happens. I found 450mg is generally right for me but sometimes I go a little higher.

What we really want to do is stop making peroxynitrite. That requires an anti EBV protocol and something that deals with endothelial dysfunction. I started on Valtrex for EBV but if you don't want a drug then Resveratrol looks a reasonable alternative.
The L-Arginine is for the endothelial dysfunction.
Happy to help if I can.

Regards

Scott1: Gleaned from the research I've done to date, Th17 cells enhance viral persistence and inhibit other beneficial T cell cytotoxicity (which would tend to kill the host cell in which the virus persists). Decreasing the number and effectiveness of Th17 cells can be done safely and effectively with vitamin D3 and zinc. In addition, as you've mentioned, resveratrol (through several different pathways) disrupts the proliferation of EBV-infected cells. Selenium, vitamin E (as mixed tocopherols) and vitamin C, and other antioxidants in general, are effective in preventing viral replication. Coconut oil has shown to have antibacterial, antiviral, and antifungal properties. These are the substances I have suggested to my son, and he currently obtains them through diet or supplemention. As you can see, a natural/close to natural approach. I'll research the items you've suggested. Thanks.

Hi Again,

The Vitamin D3 should help VDR look right. I'm a little suspicious that looking right may not be the same as being right. That's just my unverified opinion . VDR is a thyroid like nuclear receptor. It's actually one of three Vit D receptors. The master switch for all thyroid like receptors is the retinoid X receptor (RXR). I strongly believe that as RXR and VDR work in a complex you need to upregulate the RXR. This can be done by using 9 cis retinoic acid. The only safe way to do this is by using Carrot Juice. It will also provide All Trans Retinoic Acid which the EBV shell doesn't manage well. Broadly, I agree with what you have said but I now believe MS is a metabolic problem rather than common view that it is autoimmune so I don't worry too much about the immune system. It will sort itself out. Eventually, if untreated immune issues such as Lymphoma could possibly arise so then you would have an immune issue.

Regards

I forgot to mention I also take a good swig of Olive leaf extract each day. It does taste awful but you get used to it. The active ingredient is oleuropein which will upregulate PPAR which was discussed on this thread by Anonymoose. PPAR is another nuclear receptor.

Regards

(ps sorry about the numerous grammatical errors in my posts. I can never see them till it's all too late! Probably a man thing.)

Scott1 wrote:Hi,

I love that article. It's been quite a while since I've posted anything but this conversation has got me interested.

When I first started trying to sort myself out I noticed the large body of work that associated EBV with MS. Later I became aware of the work that looked at Peroxynitrite as a rather pernicious problem.

My approach to the EBV was to take 2x 500mg of Valacyclovir twice a day (see Avonex and Valtrex in the regimes forum). I did this for over 10 years and, for me, it was very successful. I can understand the problems you have had taking it but I suspect your adverse reaction is due to how the Valtrex is reacting with other aspects of your general health rather than the EBV. You may need to ask the question-"what other bugs do I have as well?" You are on the right track but the path is often not clear.

The reason you should still aim to attack the EBV is mentioned in the article. The EBV infected B cells are immortalised by EBV and that is not good. Those cells give off an excess of Superoxide. In itself that's a radical but not the end of the world. The problem arises when Superoxide meets Nitric Oxide. There are two forms of Nitric Oxide- 1) Constitutive (good) and Inducible (Bad). Constitutive has two forms- 1) Neuronal and 2) Endothelial. Inducible Nitric Oxide arises in the absence of Constitutive Nitric Oxide. It is common at the sight of wounds and has a longer life than constitutive Nitric Oxide. If Superoxide meets Inducible Nitric Oxide there is a exponential expansion of the product Peroxynitrite.
Peroxynitrite does a lot of rotten things but the worst is it knocks out Glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate, a central step in glycolysis and gluconeogenesis. This means you are short of phosphate required for ATP to drive the sodium -potassium pump in all your cells to create energy. Signs that this is happening are very low levels of non essential amino acids, low uric acid, elevated LDL levels etc.
I took so much Valtrex that I ended up with gout (because it's a purine). I was forced to relook at everything I did and eventually will get around to posting a long article.

In essence, to stay well, this is what I do now.

1x 300mg Resveratol on rising
1x large glass of pomegranate juice
2x really good probiotic tablets - or you will have a problem
A bowl of greek style natural yoghurt
3 boiled eggs

After half an hour

1 large freshly made carrot juice with a big chunk of fresh ginger

At night

A level teaspoon of L-Arginine powder in a glass of water- (tastes disgusting but this is critical)

450-600mg of Coenzyeme Q10 just before going to bed. (also critical)

I am amazingly well and rarely think of MS any more.

If I was you I would establish a base line using a Fasting Amino Acid test to see if your nonessential amino acids are low. I bet they are through the floor.

Regards

Welcome back, scott1.

I've read your posts and am now a bit confused as to your pov. Do you think removing or minimizing ebv will essentially take care of ms or is it a metabolic issue you are addressing? Will taking care of ebv correct the metabolic issue?

As for the amino test, I'm feeling too guilty for asking my neuro chase down intrathecal rituximab for me. He is way out of his comfort zone and still pleasantly trying to satisfy my request. I can't bother him for another thing at this point. Should I just take an amino acid supplement?

I can't take the resveratrol continuously. It acts as an estrogen blocker or agonist depending on its mood, I guess and has my girl cycle all messed up. I think I will take a dose or two during each of my rituximab treatments to down regulate ebv lmp1 and ebna so the infected B cells will be more susceptible to the rituximab. I'll also start taking 500mg/day of valtrex after my first rit treatment.

Other than that, I plan to keep taking antiviral supplements...zinc, selenium, etc. Since I'm not sure if the reason you take the carrot juice, Q10, etc is for metabolic or ebv issues and I don't know if knocking out ebv will correct the metabolic issue you suspect to exist, I don't know if I should add those components or not! Hey, at least I've gotten over my cortisol/aldosterone obsession.

Glad you are continuing to do well.

The low uric acid arises from the disruption to the glycogenic cycle. In particular the way the Krebs cycle is affected.

low uric acid is directly correlated with zinc status, an essential nutrient which is known to be low in ms patients and is critical to a wide variety of body processes

Liver cirrhosis and metabolism (sugar, protein, fat and trace elements)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 460400261X
The metabolism of various nutrients in the liver indicates the presence and severity of liver disorder, and can also reveal suitable nutritional treatment strategies. ... we conducted tests comparing the concentrations of trace elements among patients at various stages of chronic liver disease, and found a significant correlation between trace element metabolism and disease presence and progression. ... Excess or deficiency can be rectified for improvement of chronic liver disease. Because trace element concentrations are markers of oxidative stress levels in the liver, analysis of the concentrations can also be used for diagnosis of liver disease as well as indicating the effectiveness of antioxidant therapy.

Role of Nutrition in the Management of Hepatic Encephalopathy in End-Stage Liver Failure
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnume/2010/489823/
...The functional integrity of the liver is essential for nutrient supply (carbohydrates, fat, and proteins), and the liver plays a fundamental role in intermediary metabolism. For example, the liver regulates the synthesis, storage, and breakdown of glycogen, and hepatocytes express enzymes that enable them to synthesize glucose from various precursors such as amino acids, pyruvate, and lactate (gluconeogenesis). ... Malnutrition is known to lead to glycogen depletion ...

ORAL ZINC SUPPLEMENTATION IMPROVES HEPATIC ENCEPHALOPATHY: Results of a Randomised Controlled Trial
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3684925674

Scott1: Just targeting TH17 cells because they assist in the survival of EBV infected cells. I agree MS is metabolic in nature, a disorder precipitated (in genetically predisposed persons) by an infection, likely EBV (though there are other culprits).

Grandsons4, as you may have noticed, there is a split of opinion and practice on this board as to whether to take inosine to raise uric acid. I take it. I'm not aware of any harm, and I read articles last fall in pub med that suggest that inosine not only raises uric acid but is possibly neuroprotective in its own right. But my method of choosing supplements is different to what Anonymoose and Scott and Jimmylegs seem to do. I know I'm not a scientist, or nutrition specialist. I'm looking for some evidence of benefit, evidence of low risk and beyond that I'm as happy with placebo effect as I am with actual effect. I have great respect for the potential of mind body interaction, so where I see evidence of possible benefit that is convincing to me, I go with it. Even if I'm wrong empirically, it may be right for me medically because I believe it can work. Of course I'm also looking for the maximum synergistic effect of staying as healthy as I can through diet and exercise, enough sleep, positive social interaction, reduced stress, and the best cognitive exercises and challenges I can come up with. And I'm on a drug that makes sense to me, while staying aware of options in the research pipeline that I may prefer when they come available.

Since you are researching for the benefit of someone else, you might want to look for ways to get him involved in researching his own treatment so that he can be personally convinced that some of these things are helpful.

CaliReader: Yes, evidence of benefit. P.S. My son suspects Lyme (no hard physical evidence, such as EM, actual tick, etc), but he's more into researching personal experiences and contrasting those with his own. He has, at my suggestion, been supplementing with inosine at 1 g/d, and is considering an increase. Thanks.

I've been following this thread for some time... Being that my wife had a severe case of mono when she was in her mid teens, and now has ms there must be a connection. Currently she is
taking 250mg of Resvertrol with Pterostilbene... Anyhow, here are some must read articles relating viruses with disease..

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/jun/03 ... hkvpRafdz8

Perron has founded a biotech start-up —GeNeuro, in Geneva, Switzerland—to develop treatments targeting HERV-W. The company has created an antibody that neutralizes a primary viral protein, and it works in lab mice with MS. “We have terrific effects,” Perron says. “In animals that have demyelinating brain lesions induced by these HERV envelope proteins, we see a dramatic stop to this process when we inject this antibody.” He is scheduled to begin a Phase 1 clinical trial in people with MS near the end of this year. A clinical trial with schizophrenics might follow in 2011.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC140618/

And here's another great link of how EBV affects endothelium cells..

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4983711743

Abstract
Vascular endothelial cells are suspected of being the target of autoimmune processes seen in many connective tissue diseases and in systemic vasculitis as evidenced by the detection of circulating autoantibodies against endothelial cell antigens. In order to select B cells recognizing endothelial cells antigens, Epstein-Barr virus (EBV)-infected B cells, obtained from one patient presenting a systemic vasculitis, were cocultured with human endothelial cells concurrently with a human endothelial cell line (EC-pSV1 cells). This coculture consisted of a first step of expansion of B cells specifically selected by adherence onto human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVEC). The adherence of selected B cells was specific to endothelial cells because no rosette formation around control cells (HeLa cells or COS cells) was observed. Adherent B cells were cloned by limiting dilution by coculture onto EC-pSV1 cells and screened for anti-HUVEC antibody production by endothelial cell ELISA. An increase in anti-HUVEC antibody production of IgM isotype was detected by endothelial cell ELISA, peaking at Day 9 and remaining constantly elevated, relative to B cell expansion. Among 21 B cell lines producing IgM, 6 presented high levels of anti-HUVEC antibodies, whereas 1 of 52 B cells cloned without EC-pSV1 cells showed such antibody production. Anti-HUVEC antibody production and B cell proliferation were dependent on the presence of endothelial cells. Two of these 6 B cell lines produced antibodies directed against an endothelial cell antigen with an apparent molecular weight of 192 kDa as determined by immunoblotting analysis. Our results demonstrate that adherence of EBV-infected B cells to endothelial cells and further cloning by adherence can efficiently select anti-HUVEC antibody-producing human B cells and might help to define antigens potentially involved in autoimmune diseases.

Bob