This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

leonardo wrote:I looked at the study about vzv that I posted here and noticed that there were already 4 or 5 same studies, with exactly the same result.

The first one was from 2004.

How long do we have to wait for some conclusions?

2004? try mutterings around 1969

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4305401

Br Med J. 1969 Apr 26;2(5651):218-20.
Herpes zoster and multiple sclerosis.
Lenman JA, Peters TJ.
Abstract
No significant difference was found between 50 consecutive patients with multiple sclerosis and matched controls in respect of previous infection with rubella or measles and chicken-pox, or of previous vaccination and immunizing injections. Significantly more patients had a past history of herpes zoster compared with the controls.

leonardo wrote:

The effect of Astragalus polysaccharide on the Epstein-Barr virus lytic cycle.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717032

Effects of a polysacharide from Chinese herbal plant Astragalus membranaceus (APS) on the expression of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) immediate early proteins Zta, Rta and EA-D in Raji cells were examined. EBV switch from latent to lytic cycle in Raji cells was induced by 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol-13-acetate (TPA) and sorbol butyrate (SB) and the effects of APS were examined by immunofluorescence, western blotting and flow cytometry. APS in a non-cytotoxic concentration of 30 μg/ml significantly suppressed the expression of Zta, Rta and EA-D during the EBV lytic cycle. Our observations indicate that APS is potentially useful as an anti-EBV drug.

Just an FYI, astralagus is not recommended for msers. I'm not sure there are any negative reports but it stimulates the immune system so that might be something to be watchful for if you try it.

I read that as well... it is considered to have some anti-viral activity but it does increase the production of immune cells which is a potential concern. Especially if it increases the immune cells infected with EBV.

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsup ... agalus.htm

"...People with autoimmune diseases, such as Crohn's disease, multiple sclerosis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes or systemic lupus erythematosus shouldn't use astragalus unless recommended by a qualified healthcare practitioner. People who have had transplant surgery should not use astragalus..."

thank you for all this very useful information and Kronk's view on the effect of anti-viral activity which may be of concern...

I have been on Zovirax/aciclovar 2x800 mg/day for two weeks. I had no problems or side effects whatsoever during the cure itself. but now 4 weeks later I slide back, feel significant progression of the disease. wonder whether the anti-viral activity of aciclovar may be a factor increasing the production of immune cells (infected with EBV).. will get it tested soon. if increased, it would seem important for us to strenghten the immune system, not to attack the virus itself by anti-viral medication...

a lot of studies were done in the past with aciclovar and RR patients. but studies may not be telling for progressive. I think the mechanism and the state of tissues in progressive are distinctively different from RR (double peak in graph age of onset). and thus the effects of anti-viral medication may also be different...

Anonymoose wrote:

leonardo wrote:

The effect of Astragalus polysaccharide on the Epstein-Barr virus lytic cycle.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717032

Effects of a polysacharide from Chinese herbal plant Astragalus membranaceus (APS) on the expression of Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) immediate early proteins Zta, Rta and EA-D in Raji cells were examined. EBV switch from latent to lytic cycle in Raji cells was induced by 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol-13-acetate (TPA) and sorbol butyrate (SB) and the effects of APS were examined by immunofluorescence, western blotting and flow cytometry. APS in a non-cytotoxic concentration of 30 μg/ml significantly suppressed the expression of Zta, Rta and EA-D during the EBV lytic cycle. Our observations indicate that APS is potentially useful as an anti-EBV drug.

Just an FYI, astralagus is not recommended for msers. I'm not sure there are any negative reports but it stimulates the immune system so that might be something to be watchful for if you try it.

I think that all supplements that stimulate immune system are by default not recommended for msers. I don't like this approach because we some of them may turn out good for ms.

Leonardo,

I agree...some may be beneficial. You've got to make your own call regarding the risk you are willing to take. Lurk up a bunch of chronic ebv forums and you will find very little mention of astralagus helping anyone to any great degree. Probably the strongest "natural" supplement mentions you will find are monolaurin and maybe olive leaf extract. Scott1 had some improvement with a symptom high dosing lactoferrin which allegedly fights ebv (with some possible dangers to msers)...wasn't all smooth sailing though and his viral load was probably low to start. There's a thread somewhere around here...

Let us know how it goes if you try it!

leonardo wrote:I think that all supplements that stimulate immune system are by default not recommended for msers. I don't like this approach because we some of them may turn out good for ms.

Agreed. I think the issue is if you stimulate your immune system in terms of increasing your B cells in particular then by default you are increasing levels of EBV. I think that is why MS therapies are somewhat effective, they target B cells and keep their levels low.

If we can keep our EBV levels low we may be able to control our MS. This is easier said than done as EBV is elusive and we don’t really know exactly how it switches from Latent to Reactivation. Being that EBV lives in our B cells which are a part of our immune system It is safe to say that keeping your immune system from flaring up will help. So keep as healthy as possible. Following these guidelines may help…

-Wash your hands, don’t touch your face (serious, see next point)
-Avoid infections (one suspected trigger for EBV is unrelated infections, B-cell receptor stimulation triggers reactivation in B-cell lines including those infected with EBV)
-keep excellent dental hygiene (most infections take place in the gums)
-Keep Vit D levels high (drink lots of water as you can develop kidney stones)
-Keep Uric Acid levels high with Inosine (drink lots of water as you can develop kidney stones)
-Exercise (focus on strength/muscle building)
-Keep vitamins and minerals optimal through blood tests (zinc lozenges seem particularly helpful in combating EBV)
-Avoid stress as much as is practical (I have a very stressful job but employ various techniques to keep it in check)
-Don’t smoke
-Drink only in moderation
-Avoid Dairy (see link below)
-Get adequate sleep (another one I am guilty of breaking)
-Eat Swank or at least a low fat diet (low fat is recommended for people with mono, the initial active form of EBV which occurs in less than 50% of infected)
-Take a DMD if above doesn't suffice as they reduce overall B cell numbers.

Avoiding Dairy is not something I believed in until I came across this info...
The EBV lytic cycle is induced in cell culture by various stimuli, including sodium butyrate. Butyrate is a saturated short-chain fatty acid (SCFA) found primarily in cheese and other dairy products. It is also found in high quantities in Kombucha tea. While this tea has numerous other benefits being packed with anti-oxidants it definitely has high Butyrate. Interestingly another SCFA fatty acid ,which is not saturated, blocks the EBV reactivation actions of Butyrate. This is likely due to it using the same uptake pathways and enzymes which blocks butyrate. The fatty acid is Valproic and is used medically to treat patients with epilepsy and manic disorders occurring naturally in berries. Raspberries, Blueberries and Strawberries all possess high amounts of Valproic acid.

It is unknown how Butyrate promotes lytic activation and why it has differing effects on EBV reactivation than Valproic acid. I think this is due to the saturation of Butyrate and is yet another justification for the avoidance of Saturated fats.

http://fundedresearch.cancer.gov/ncipor ... sessionid= E378CCCEE6D2C7498E128C7D1BD2EA6F?action=abstract&grantNum=1F32CA165705-01A1&grantID=8391455&grtSCDC=FY%202012&absID=8391455&absSCDC=CURRENT
Effects of short-chain fatty acids on Epstein-Barr virus in B cell lymphoma
“…The EBV lytic cycle is induced in cell culture by various stimuli, including sodium butyrate. Butyrate is a short-chain fatty acid (SCFA)…”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15047835
Fatty acid synthase expression is induced by the Epstein-Barr virus immediate-early protein BRLF1 and is required for lytic viral gene expression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6257378
Effect of short-chain fatty acids on Epstein-Barr virus early and viral capsid antigen induction in P3HR-1 cells

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01310678
Quantitative analysis of the Epstein-Barr virus-inducing properties of short-chain fatty acids present in the culture fluids of oral bacteria

http://wholefoodcatalog.info/nutrient/b ... ds/high/1/
Foods containing Butyrate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valproic_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid

More fuel for the EBV fire...

305 MS patients were tested and ALL had EBV, and the levels of EBV were significantly higher than controls.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3089959/

EBV levels are higher in MS patients during relapses.
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/m ... -between-m s-and-evb-infection-061213

The only proven MS cure is to destroy your immune system and build it back with stem cells. Which would also kill all EBV.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 121738.htm

Good old Swank diet’s efficacy could be tied to the fact that the Lytic replication of EBV requires Fatty Acids. By restricting them we are restricting its ability to multiply in our body.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15047835

"...These results suggest that cellular Fatty Acid Synthase (FAS) activity is important for induction of Z transcription from the intact latent EBV genome, perhaps reflecting the involvement of lipid-derived signaling pathways or palmitoylated proteins. Furthermore, using FAS inhibitors may be a completely novel approach for blocking the lytic form of EBV replication..."

Vitamin D also acts directly on EBV.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17574770

Stress is often blamed for increasing risk of relapse. Stress is directly tied to higher EBV levels, even in healthy controls.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7991763

Kronk - that's a great post about keeping EBV levels down.

The thing is is it's not just EBV, but the presense of any form of herpes that seems to be capable of triggering MS, Varicella Zoster Virus (VZV), for example, has just as good a case. I realise this thread is about EBV but I think it's time to stop narrowing down one particular herpes strain.

Also when you mention EBV reactivation

we don’t really know exactly how it switches from Latent to Reactivation

You are making the assumption that herpes needs to be reactivated, just as researchers have done for countless years, looking for evidence that herpes is attacking nerve tissue. That's just the thing, it's mere presence seems to stimulate the immune system into attacking healthy nerve tissue. If I could use the following, clumsy analogy:

Imagine a castle that is full of civilians, women and children. An unwanted refuge army lives there too, but in hiding, doing nothing. Every now and then, a skirmish, or something unknown, triggers a rescue force to enter the castle looking for the army in hiding, they ransack the place killing the innocent but not finding the hidden army.

If this is what is happening, you could argue that MS is not truly an autoimmune illness, but nor is it an illness where herpes attacks the body. It is the mere presence of herpes that cause the damage.

This is why researchers have spent decades looking for evidence of viral attack (such as from EBV and similar strains of herpes) on nerves but found almost nothing. The irony is, viruses are after all the cause of MS, it's just that they don't attack.

gainsbourg

gainsbourg wrote: If I could use the following, clumsy analogy

The analogy is great, and I fully agree. However I think there is a level of EBV or VZV that is tolerable in our bodies. Whether our immune system ignores it, isn't prevalent enough to active the T cells or the battle is waged on such a small level that we don't often notice the neurological effects. Our MS only seems to flare when the levels of these viruses are high.

The other big question is that 95% of the human race has a herpes virus. Why do a fraction of a percent get MS?
I cant help but think there are several underlying processes that cause MS.

Hey guys,
Over in the rituxan forum I posted a few studies that might help thought along. Msers have a B cell tolerance defect. That might be what sets us apart from the ebv carriers who don't get ms...if ebv is the trigger. Other links about ebv immortalized B cells and autoantibodies to brain goodies. It's a slow forum so should be easy to find them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24793092

Effect of high dose vitamin C on Epstein-Barr viral infection.

Background Many natural compounds were tested for the ability to suppress viral replication. The present manuscript details an analysis of high dose vitamin C therapy on patients with EBV infection. Material and Methods The data were obtained from the patient history database at the Riordan Clinic. Among people in our database who were treated with intravenous vitamin C (7.5 g to 50 g infusions) between 1997 and 2006, 178 patients showed elevated levels of EBV EA IgG (range 25 to 211 AU) and 40 showed elevated levels of EBV VCA IgM (range 25 to 140 AU). Most of these patients had a diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome, with the rest being diagnosed as having mononucleosis, fatigue, or EBV infection. Results Our data provide evidence that high dose intravenous vitamin C therapy has a positive effect on disease duration and reduction of viral antibody levels. Plasma levels of ascorbic acid and vitamin D were correlated with levels of antibodies to EBV. We found an inverse correlation between EBV VCA IgM and vitamin C in plasma in patients with mononucleosis and CFS meaning that patients with high levels of vitamin C tended to have lower levels of antigens in the acute state of disease. In addition, a relation was found between vitamin D levels and EBV EA IgG with lower levels of EBV early antigen IgG for higher levels of vitamin D. Conclusions The clinical study of ascorbic acid and EBV infection showed the reduction in EBV EA IgG and EBV VCA IgM antibody levels over time during IVC therapy that is consistent with observations from the literature that millimolar levels of ascorbate hinder viral infection and replication in vitro.

Another interesting item regarding Valproic acid is that it is effective at preventing plaques in Alzheimers... in mice anyways

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585842/

"We show that VPA not only inhibits neuritic plaque formation but also promotes neurite outgrowth"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22733814

"we believe VPA might be a safe and effective therapy for autoimmune diseases, such as multiple sclerosis"

1. Cordycepin is a novel chemical suppressor of Epstein-Barr virus replication

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4303894/

"Extracellular and intracellular EBV genome copy numbers were reduced by up to 55% and 30%, respectively, in response to 125 μM cordycepin treatment."

2. Genipin as a novel chemical activator of EBV lytic cycle.

" Genipin is an aglycone derived from an iridoid glycoside called geniposide, which is present in large quantities in the fruit of G. jasminoides. .... These results indicated that genipin could be a promising candidate for antiviral and antitumor agents against EBV and EBVaGC."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25626372

This seemed important. Pardon me if it has already been mentioned...http://www.nature.com/cti/journal/v3/n1 ... 1425a.html

Hey I just noticed: the guy is calling for clinical trials, but says "SPMS" patients should be tried first! Really what he is saying is it's too risky for "RRMS" people but hey at least it's something... Sure, do all the most risky things to us progressive (read expendable) patients. We are the hopeless, so if there are risks, give them to Mikey. Oh well, kill me, I can take it.