This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

haha oh well. see if you can leave your sat fats the same and work cautiously on increasing pufas (and by cautiously, I mean with a narrow focus on whole food omega3s)

I suspect you know most of what I am going to say BUT here goes anyways.

make sure your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio is about 3:1. (for folks eating processed food it's usually WAY too much pufa overall, and WAY too much omega 6 compared to O3). I have posted on this subject elsewhere, but don't have time for hunting right now.

flax seeds are a decent source of omega 3 (except for being short chain ALA) and they don't have too much O-6 (unlike walnuts which pack a solid O6 punch along with the O3). a tbsp. of flax per day couldn't hurt. I usually sprinkle flaxseed over oatmeal and berries, or on salad.

to a much lesser extent in terms of meeting daily requirements, you can still boost the O3 side of the equation by including one or more of these on a daily basis: cooked spinach, squash, wild rice, and cauliflower (however, all of these contain the short chain ALA form).

the issue of course is inefficient conversion (I have to look this up, but possibly less than 1%???!!!) from ALA to the long chain O3s (EPA/DHA) and lucky you, seafood is all over the list of superior healthy long chain omega 3 choices :S

a high quality fish oil supplement could definitely go a long way to redeem your loathing of the salmonesque.

lol enjoy your sunlamp shopping hehehe - but I think shopping for sunlamps will end up looking a little more pricey than shopping for plant lights!: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/60w-a19 ... ght/967961

hope the oyster experiment is a success they are defs good for both zinc and iron, and they have a great O3:O6 ratio too. i'm sure the benefits will outweigh the naughty frying lol

sounds good re those supplements. let's hope for success when it comes time for the next round of bloodwork.

and, thanks it's deadline after deadline for me at the moment :S

Well I made it through two oysters without spewing...barely. A forever vegetarian I am. I guess I will be supplement dependent forever too.

Jimmylegs, you are an absolute genius! I would have never thought of testing iron. After just a few days on the supplements, I'm alive again! We were out all day and I could keep going. Thank you!!!! If there is ever anyway I can repay you (besides eating oysters and sweet potatoes), please just say the word.

Ahappymoose

glad you are feeling better!!! keep up the good work!

In the video Carolyn Dean explains the problem with testing for magnesium in the blood. Need a specific test for the body level of magnesium. You also have the problem of determining what is the proper level. Just because the government gives us a certain level does not mean that is the correct level. Maybe it is best to juice lots of green leafy vegetables and let your body determine how much magnesium your body needs.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... =361716370

re magnesium absorption cofactors (b6) in the context of dietary restrictions:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/v ... vitaminB6/

Certain plant foods contain a unique form of vitamin B6 called pyridoxine glucoside; this form of vitamin B6 appears to be only about half as bioavailable as vitamin B6 from other food sources or supplements. Vitamin B6 in a mixed diet has been found to be approximately 75% bioavailable (7). In most cases, including foods in the diet that are rich in vitamin B6 should supply enough to prevent deficiency. However, those who follow a very restricted vegetarian diet might need to increase their vitamin B6 intake by eating foods fortified with vitamin B6 or by taking a supplement.

Bioavailability of vitamin B-6 from plant foods
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/3/863.abstract
The major factors that affect bioavailability of vitamin B-6 are formation of reaction products during food processing, fiber type and content, and presence of the conjugated pyridoxine glucoside. The bioavailability of vitamin B-6 from animal products is quite high, reaching 100% for many foods. In general the bioavailability from plant foods is lower. The presence of fiber reduces the bioavailability by 5-10% whereas the presence of pyridoxine glucoside reduces the bioavailability by 75-80%. This glucoside is found in a variety of plant foods, with the highest content occurring in the crucifers. The percent of total vitamin B-6 that exists as the glucoside has been suggested to be the best indicator of bioavailability. Data from Nepalese vegetarian lactating women suggest that the low vitamin B-6 status of these mothers and their infants, as determined by their concentrations of plasma pyridoxal phosphate, may be adversely affected by the dietary intake of the naturally occurring pyridoxine glucoside.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=108
Spinach....................1 cup cooked...0.44 22% DV [35% glucoside so likely a significant impact on bioavailability of that .44mgs of b6]
Bell Peppers..............1 cup raw.......0.27 13.5% DV
Turnip Greens...........1 cup cooked...0.26 13% DV
Summer Squash........1 cup raw.......0.25 12.5% DV
Mushrooms, Shiitake..87 g...............0.25 12.5% DV
(so far I have no data on glucoside content for the last four)

so anyway, let's say you eat all of that, twice over, *every single day*, you *might* get close to 100% of RDA. and whether you are satisfied with that depends on whether you feel the RDA of two whole milligrams is actually valid.

for comparison's sake, non vegans can get away with things like 4oz tuna, which delivers close to 60% of RDA in one shot. or chicken which delivers 35% of RDA in one 4oz serving. both with close to 100% bioavailability.

so yep looks like given anon's decisions re animal products, a b6 supplement looks pretty smart to help with her absorption and utilization of mag from food and/or supplements.

(on a related note, watch the cauliflower for boosting O-3, anon.. looks like raw is the way to go there. has 5% glucoside but somehow frozen cauli has the highest glucoside fraction of all in this study.. 63-82%!)

I have never looked into optimal serum targets for b6, but I do know b6 formed an important component of the klenner protocol (my little fakey modified version that is) that helped me so much when I was first diagnosed and working on coming off my vegan diet. might be interesting to get a handle on the state of the research on this one. not this week though!! ugh where did the morning go!?!

Thanks want2bike. I think supplementation is a requirement for me. Food bores me and I'm just not the type to make it the center of my life. Juicing would wind up being a short term fad...I've got a juicer and a great blender and they only see the light of day occasionally.

Jimmy,
How do people even eat that much?! I had no idea cauliflower had o3. That's pretty cool. I love it raw and roasted...wouldn't touch the mushy frozen stuff. Funnily enough, dh hates it and since he's been managing food lately, it's not been on the menu. Most of my veggie staples haven't been. Could explain some of my recent downfall.

On my way to the grocery. Will stock up on real food.

Tripling the iron dose today (from 50 to 150mg elemental). Too impatient to double. Hopefully it won't smack me around too much and will speed up my iron recovery.

Now quit distracting yourself with my mess and get back to saving the world!

no no you don't want to overdo the iron anon 37.5mg per day elemental is quite enough for therapeutic boosting. the upper limit is 45mg so if you're on 50mg that's probably fine. given that you are feeling so much better already, not sure why you would want to go so high with such a double edged sword kind of nutrient :S it's not like a water soluble vitamin, or even a fat soluble one.. if you do go as high as 100mg for a few days, make sure to let the doc know.

Well poo. I was following these instructions but I'll trust you over whoever that is. http://delgadomd.com/treatment-iron-deficiency/

And I think there was something magic about those gross oysters. Why do they have to be so huge and juicy?! I puttered out at the store today. Waaahhh! It could be because I didn't eat or because my body didn't approve of 75mg iron. I'm taking iron bisglycinate. Is there a form closer to oyster iron?

So much for save the world...at least you got a few minutes. Lol

Edit: are clams less nasty? They have decent iron numbers. Would those work?

ugh sorry to hear you ran out of steam :S

LOL YES it could be something to do with not eating 7:P
you can't just live on the supplements. diverse nutrient-dense properly combined whole foods are the best foundation imho.

this is from the world health organization.. for severe anemia it does go higher than 50, but not as high as 150:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publicatio ... tation.pdf
120 mg iron + 400 µg folic acid daily

basically, if you upped your iron intake and you feel worse, i'd say go back to 50. and eat! hopefully that will put you back into shape

I am afraid i don't even know what oysters, mussels, clams and so on are like! had a bad experience when I was little and it scarred me for life :S
shrimp and scallops are as far as I have been able to go with shellfish. even those are pushing it.

i spread out my zinc and iron intakes across a whole bunch of different things now though, fish, poultry, red meat plus veggie sources, so i don't need to try and pack as much punch into one bite.

whenever i'm going to eat something i don't particularly like, i just cut it in small pieces and try to hide each bit inside something tastier ;)

okay back to the books for meee feel better soon

I did eat breakfast (egg on whole grain sandwich thin) with a cup of oj. I only put off lunch!

Will try clams tonight and take a zinc to counterbalance the big copper blow. I think this will be more successful, not as gushy and juicy. They're supposed to be healthy too...except for that toxic muck sucking thing...and the fried factor probably won't help either.

I should say I am sorry to hear you had a scarring experience with shellfish but I'm just relieved that you, who could go from long time vegan to red meat eater, has some food barriers too.

Now quit watching tims and get back to those books for yououou!

good to hear re breakfast though I found out today OJ has that B6-depleting glucoside in it too. weird!

anyway. clams, sounds good. fortunately you don't have to eat all shellfish all the time ;) or everything fried hehe

yep I am afraid I walk most but not all of the talk :S crustaceans, the insects of the sea, are my main bane and for some reason molluscs are guilty by association. although I can handle shrimp occasionally, and I have tried scallops twice. c'est la vie!

I check in here between mini milestones, I am shocking I know :S back to it! hehe

Guess what! I can eat clams and the fried part is the worst part of them. I can eat unfried clams! Know what else? I like blackened salmon! Yippee! Big doses of iron and o-3 from real food! . Maybe I'm not a hopeless case afterall. Now I just need to make sure I never look either of those things in the eye. Do clams even have eyes?

I got my lab printout and it seems like it has a different vitamin d blurb than my April one did. I need to check to be sure. Are you still collecting that info? I could send it your way if it is different. Funny the only other blurb was for folate.

WOWWW ANON that is great news!!! nope clams don't have eyes lucky you hehe

sure, send lab blurb to my email. helps me understand what is going on out there with ranges - thanks much!

so tell me how today went. I need a break from my depressing research

Lol! Procrastinator!

Today was much better than yesterday. I shopped longer (postponing lunch again) and didn't go all zombie. Yay! Methinks you are right about that iron dosing. Big surprise there. You should set up an online nutrition counseling site and charge money (to support your research in case the grant doesn't come through). And...just to distract you more...am I anemic or just insufficient in iron and when should I retest the levels? I can't find the anemia parameters anywhere online. (You could be going cha-ching right now if you had that website!)

I compared my new labs to old ones. The d blurb is the same. I'm just senile so everything I read is new after a few months. either that or I ignored it in the first place.

Only one paper left! Yay for you!