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The following website has been reported as one used by various drug company sales reps. Read the various posts, ensuring that you go beyond the first page to the following pages of messages.

The one comment about Antegren losing effect after 18 months is quite astounding. You'll have to make your own conclusions.

Harry

http://www.cafepharma.com/ubbthreads/sh ... e=0#262902

Thanks Harry, great link..

Yea, I agree, Harry! Where do you find 'em?

That was an example of a typical Board meeting I used to sit in on when I worked in medical corporate! HAH!!! Cracks me up! Brought back memories!

And while all that arguing was going on, I'd sit there and pound the table and say "WHAT ABOUT THE PATIENTS!?" LOL I swear to God, it's true.

Other than that, I think I'll keep my other comments and opinions to myself.

Deb

Deb,

Taking part in 9 different MS forums, I come across this kind of information periodically. I also have established contact with a few very knowledgeable MS people to whom I can turn and obtain excellent reference info.

I know what you mean about the world of medicine and drugs. Marg worked in the field of medicine for over 25 years before MS forced her to give up her job. She would always have stories that would make your blood turn cold!!

Harry

Deb,

I see on CNN today, Merck was aware of possible severe heart damage from Vioxx many months before they pulled the drug off the shelves. In fact, Merck trained their sales reps in how to deflect a number of concerns that were being presented about the drug...in order to keep its sales high.

I can imagine what the lawyers are going to do with Merck by the time this is over. I somehow doubt they will be around much longer after this gets through the courts.

Now I ask the question..... how much do you trust Biogen, Berlex, Teva and Serona when it comes to telling everything there is to know about the CRABs and Antegren?

Harry

Good morning, Harry!

Truthfully, not much, I hate to say. I can't help it. When you investigate and analyze their annual reports, R&D pipeline, SEC reports, etc., you can see the marketing "ploys", ya know what I mean?

Like Marg, maybe it's because I've sat on the darn Boards of a medical corp. before, but they TRAINED me how to eye the competitor and forecast the possible future financial strategies that they are going to use. (And I do the same thing for the Union now, too. Especially if we are in an adversarial labor relationship with a company.) Sometimes you can see the handwriting on the wall.

That's not to say that some of these drugs themselves aren't useful - of course they are. It's the "presentation" of the drug to the public that is questionable. But..............truthfully..........when you REALLY dig, you can get down to the real story about the CRABS.

And here's an inflammatory statement, and I've been keeping it to myself, and before anyone yells at me, this is just purely my own opinion and I can't recall and say now how I came to this conclusion (I dug around and read a few things here and there), but..............I wouldn't get overly excited about Antegren, either. There's a reason, remember, why they suddenly started using and testing Antegren as a combination drug, instead of just a sole MS therapy in and of itself.

But, I have been known to be wrong before, of course. And I'm sure not ALL companies are flat out "corrupt", but do they all use the same corporate tactics and strategies? Sure they do. There's a saying in the business: "It's just a numbers game." (I used to hate hearing that.)

Deb

EDIT: Harry, yes, I think I agree about the Merck situation. If they get out of this one, it'll be a pure miracle.

SECOND EDIT: And as I think I mentioned somewhere else here, that would hit me doubley (is that a word?) hard, as our Union represents the employees at Merck. At some point, we'll have to get involved to try to save our members' jobs (I would think). That's what we Unions do, ya know!

I agree with your comments on Antegren totally, Deb. I'll opt the "wait and see" attitude with this one. I was really excited about it until they started using it as a combination therapy. For some people, the Avonex is more than they can stand as far as side effects go.

I think what makes me the angriest is our desperation and confusion over this disease. I still think back to the first time our ex-neuro mentioned Antegren to us. (He couldn't remember the name of the drug, but boy, was he excited! We were excited, too.) This was at one of our appointments after my son had a really severe exacerbation while using Avonex, and we were preparing to switch to Rebif, after arguing endlessly with the doc about putting him on Novantrone and Copaxone without first checking the antibodies to the interferons. Then, when he started having severe problems with the Rebif and we went back for another visit to discuss this, he was pushing the idea of Avonex and Antegren in combination therapy, and he went on and on about how the drug rep for them had just left his office. He was encouraging us to "wait it out" with the Rebif, while denying that it could cause the depression and side effects my son was having! I lost my enthusiasm on the spot. My son didn't reall matter to him at all at that point. He saw guinea pigs when he looked at us, that's all we were.

Hope you guys have a great week! Take care!

Kim

Deb,

And here's an inflammatory statement, and I've been keeping it to myself, and before anyone yells at me, this is just purely my own opinion and I can't recall and say now how I came to this conclusion (I dug around and read a few things here and there), but..............I wouldn't get overly excited about Antegren, either. There's a reason, remember, why they suddenly started using and testing Antegren as a combination drug, instead of just a sole MS therapy in and of itself.

I'm certainly not going to yell at you In fact, I'm going to join your corner on this one!

I have a friend who has done a ton of research on MS in the past 5 years and has been able to get ahold of some the actual CRAB studies...not just the carefully crafted abstracts. It's when you read these studies that you discover information that you never read about in the fancy press releases. Like in some of the early Betaseron trials, patients were given steroids during the trial which of course had an effect on the exacerbation rate that would be take place during the study!!!

Like I've said all along and it's just a "gut" feeling and nothing scientific at all....I just don't trust the supposed Antegren numbers that have been bantered about by Biogen in some of the press releases. Nobody has seen the actual trials as yet since Biogen has not released them.

I really hope that I'm wrong on this one and that Antegren will indeed help many MS patients. Time will tell.

Harry

Exactly right, Harry. When I was about to be in that clinical trial, I was reassured that there would be no problem with treating me in any other ways that was deemed necessary (i.e. steroids, symptomatic treatment, etc.) during the trial. I wondered right then how results could be really ascertained when the study itself is "polluted", shall we say, with other treatments, too. It was reassuring for a patient that they wouldn't have to "suffer" any just for the sake of the study, BUT that extra "treatment" that a patient received would NOT result in them being pulled out of the study, either.



Deb

EDIT: And I hope my gut feeling about Antegren is proven incorrect, also. I DO believe it may be helpful, but..........I'm sorry, but pushing the drug on the market TOO soon is also suspicious in my mind. Let's ask Merck about that tactic, shall we? (Sorry........couldn't resist.)