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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:26 pm
by Terry
What do you think the chances are that the body could fight the bacteria/virus on its own without meds if the blood is thinned and the fibrin is removed?
Terry
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:22 pm
by cheerleader
mrhodes40 wrote:
The simple idea that MS might be something like a germ appears to potentially be fraught with all of these complicated co factors that require far more of your doctor that 'an antibiotics prescription'. Since this may be true, it may be a long time before all the ins and outs are understood and a genuinely, repeatably successful regimen is clearly illucidated.
meantime these are interesting discussions!
Agreed, Marie. It's like peeling away the onion layers, one step at a time. Docs don't have the time or inclination. So far the process seems to be first stopping inflammation, finding stability, removing germs, bacteria, and with supplements rebuilding a healthy immune system. Jeff couldn't tolerate the antibiotic therapy because of the hypertension in his brain and the hypercoagulation of his blood. Maybe if we can get his blood moving, we can retry. Not sure if his body could do it without antibiotics, Terry...but we're just in the beginning of this process. I'm just thrilled he's feeling better than he did last year. There's healing going on, and that gives me great hope.
AC
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:33 pm
by rainer
Impaired fibrinolysis in multiple sclerosis: a role for tissue plasminogen activator inhibitors
Full article is here:
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... 126/7/1590
I am going to have to read it closer when I have more time. Definitely hints at the inflammation/fibrin catch-22 but seems to ultimately come down on less fibrin being a good thing for MS.
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:33 am
by gibbledygook
I think you want to inhibit the tissue plasminogen activator inhibitors!
from wikipedia today (3/10/08)
Tissue plasminogen activator (abbreviated tPA or PLAT) is a protein involved in the breakdown of blood clots.
and
Plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 is the principal inhibitor of tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) and urokinase (uPA), the activators of plasminogen and hence fibrinolysis (the physiological breakdown of blood clots).
so maybe a little salvia...!
1: J Cell Biochem. 2005 Sep 1;96(1):109-16. Links
Salvianolic acid B attenuates plasminogen activator inhibitor type 1 production in TNF-alpha treated human umbilical vein endothelial cells.Zhou Z, Liu Y, Miao AD, Wang SQ.
Beijing Institute of Radiation Medicine, Beijing, 100850, People's Republic of China.
Plasminogen activator inhibitor type 1 (PAI-1), which plays a role in the development of atherosclerosis, is produced by endothelial cells following stimulation with various inflammatory cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF-alpha). In the present study, we investigated the effects of a potent water-soluble antioxidant, salvianolic acid B (SalB; derived from the Chinese herb, Salvia miltiorrhiza), on the expression of PAI-1 in TNF-alpha-treated human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVECs). We found that SalB inhibited TNF-alpha-induced PAI-1 mRNA production and protein secretion in HUVECs. Treatment with SalB (0.05 and 0.15 microM) notably attenuated TNF-alpha induced expression of PAI-1 to 90.5% and 74.6%, respectively, after 12 h, and to 75.1% and 64.2%, respectively, after 18 h. We also observed a dose-dependent decrease in PAI-1 protein production in the presence of SalB. We then used pathway inhibitors to investigate which step of the TNF-alpha induced signaling pathway was targeted by SalB. We found that the c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK) inhibitor, SP600125, increased the inhibitory effects of SalB on TNF-alpha-induced PAI-1 secretion, whereas the nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB) inhibitor, emodin, and the extracellular signal-regulated kinase (ERK) inhibitor, PD98059, did not. A gel shift assay further showed that SalB inhibited the TNF-alpha-activated NF-kappaB and AP-1 DNA binding activities in a dose-dependent manner. Collectively, these results indicate that the NF-kappaB and ERK-AP-1 pathways are possible targets of SalB in the regulation of TNF-alpha-stimulated PAI-1 production in HUVECs. Copyright 2005 Wiley-Liss, Inc
PMID: 16052513 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:34 am
by DIM
Tocotrienols (vitamin E, we use the product called Toco-sorb), omega-3 (>2grs/day), Salvia Hispanica, pycnogenol, choline (>500mg/day) all help a lot Cheer in your case.
Strange that although hemolytic factors as pycnogenol increase blood flow they DON'T increase BBB permeability!
Our neurologist ordered first atniphosphlipid and some other tests (Lupus, Huges etc) before conclude about the MS diagnosis!
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:21 am
by jimmylegs
yes DIM, tocotrienols in natural ratio TCP and TCT blended vit E, definitely better than the standard isolated alpha TCP supplement.
some more E info, further to what i mentioned earlier:
...serum levels of vitamin E and the serum vitamin E/cholesterol ratio were significantly lower in MS patients when compared with controls...
and to rainer's
...tricky though, because if blood is making it through the BBB and is leaking into the brain, you would think you'd want it thicker if anything...
i present more hyperglycemic rats :S
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13536789
Catalase and α-tocopherol attenuate blood–brain barrier breakdown in pentylenetetrazole-induced epileptic seizures in acute hyperglycaemic rats
* * *
on the different forms of vit E tocopherol (TCP) and the CNS:
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/3/233
Alpha and Gamma Tocopherols in Cerebrospinal Fluid and Serum from Older, Male, Human Subjects
The major forms of vitamin E in human physiological fluids are alpha and gamma tocopherols which exhibit different biological activities under a variety of assay conditions... processes involved in the entry of tocopherol from blood to the CSF do not discriminate between the alpha and gamma tocopherols. In contrast, alpha tocopherol is highly preferred during the packaging of plasma lipoproteins by the liver. Our data also suggest that alpha and gamma tocopherols will be available to the human brain via transport from blood.
everyone getting enough gamma TCP?
as for the vit E tocotrienols (TCT) (again, in rats grrr):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16984003
Natural vitamin E alpha-tocotrienol: retention in vital organs in response to long-term oral supplementation and withdrawal.
The natural vitamin E tocotrienol (TCT) possesses biological properties not shared by tocopherols (TCP). Nanomolar alpha-TCT, not alpha-TCP, is potently neuroprotective... Orally supplemented alpha-TCT was delivered to all vital organs including the brain and spinal cord in significant amounts... alpha-TCT accumulated in vital organs over more than 2 years was almost completely lost in less than 2 months when the supplementation was stopped. This is in sharp contrast with findings related to alpha-TCP retention. The ability of long-term oral supplementation to maintain and elevate alpha-TCT levels in vital organs together with the rapid elimination of the intact vitamin from all organs studied underscores the need for continuous oral supplementation of TCT.
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/M307075200v1
Molecular basis of vitamin E action. Tocotrienol modulates 12-lipoxygenase, a key mediator of glutamate-induced neurodegeneration
...Tocotrienol-treated primary neurons maintained healthy growth and motility even in the presence of excess glutamate...
other benefits, interesting re: diet:
http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/ ... &zoneid=28
New Study shows that Gamma-Tocotrienol is the most Cardioprotective Tocotrienol
gamma-tocotrienol was the most cardioprotective of all the isomers. This is an interesting finding with far reaching consequence as the gamma-tocotrienol form (including gamma-tocopherol) is the most abundantly found in our diet
a patent in the works:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0080109.html
Gamma-tocopherol and gamma-tocotrienol therapy for multiple sclerosis
...The therapeutic dosage is high, between about 800 mg to about 10 grams of gamma-tocopherol and between about 50 mg to about 5 grams of gamma-tocotrienol per day.
i can't find a good converter for gamma TCT mgs to IU
that's all for now
JL
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:31 am
by DIM
Tocotrienols have anti-inflammatory and anti-viral/bacterial properties so they play another important role in MS!
Before I conclude to wife's regimen I read and read many trials and reports and tocotrienols catch my attention as promising supplement as curcumin did from the start.
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:27 pm
by rainer
Here is another article on this topic. A little easier to read then the last one I posted, and has some nice diagrams.
Fibrin Mechanisms and Functions in Nervous System Pathology
In brain physiology, cerebrovascular interactions regulate both, vascular functions, such as blood vessel branching and endothelial cell homeostasis, as well as neuronal functions, such as local synaptic activity and adult neurogenesis. In brain pathology, including stroke, HIV encephalitis, Alzheimer Disease, multiple sclerosis, bacterial meningitis, and glioblastomas, rupture of the vasculature allows the entry of blood proteins into the brain with subsequent edema formation and neuronal damage. Fibrin is a blood-derived protein that is not produced by cells of the nervous system, but accumulates only after disease associated with vasculature rupture. This review presents evidence from human disease and animal models that highlight the role of fibrin in nervous system pathology. Our review presents novel experimental data that extend the role of fibrin, from that of a blood-clotting protein in cerebrovascular pathologies, to a component of the perivascular extracellular matrix that regulates inflammatory and regenerative cellular responses in neurodegenerative diseases.
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:47 pm
by jimmylegs
possible to prevent vascular rupture by upping those levels found to be low in ms patients - zinc, vitamin E etc?
zinc example (in vitro):
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/9/1664
Zinc Deficiency Induces Membrane Barrier Damage and Increases Neutrophil Transmigration in Caco-2 Cells
...critical role played by dietary zinc in the maintenance of membrane barrier integrity and in controlling inflammatory cell infiltration.
another zinc example...
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve ... 0799001483
Zinc nutrition and apoptosis of vascular endothelial cells: implications in atherosclerosis
...Our data suggest that zinc deficiency exacerbates the detrimental effects of specific fatty acids (e.g., linoleic acid) and inflammatory cytokines, such as TNF, on vascular endothelial functions
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:18 pm
by cheerleader
thanks, rainer...a good read, research brought to us from our friends at UC San Diego who studied ancrod, a thrombin-like enzyme obtained from the venom of the Malayan Pit Viper (Agkistrodon rhodostoma), which is highly specific for fibrinogen, producing anticoagulation by defibrinogenation. Now marketed as Viprinex, in clinical trials for treatment of stroke-
man o man, would love to see trials for MS....
WOW, JL....thanks for the zinc tie in. And good to hear from you, DIM and your curcumin/vit. E info, as well as Alex's salvia/saliva...you guys are always three steps ahead of me. Please write your books/open your labs, so I can take a vacation from googling
AC
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:37 pm
by cheerleader
Update-
Talked dr. into writing script for antiphospholipid test. She had balked, since Jeff is negative for lupus (ANA)....but Hughes and lupus do not always go hand in hand. He had bloodwork drawn last week- we'll see what's up with his anticardiolipin results.
Got ahold of salvia and have added that to the fibrin depleting enzymes. Jeff cut his leg this week working in the garage, and actually bled! That's new
No more sticky blood....
He's taking aspirin at night, and no new petechiae. He's also feeling much better now that the weather has cooled down. Less spasms and pain, better sleep. No vascular headaches, either. hmmm....onto something? I'll post bloodwork results when we get them.
AC
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:07 pm
by Terry
Cheer,
What is his entire blood-thinning regimen?
Please share.
Thanks!
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:03 pm
by cheerleader
Hey Terry-
daily:
Nattokinase enzyme (2000fu-fibrunolytic units, that's a new one!)
Serrapeptase enzyme (500mg)
Salvia (1g) -Alex (Gibbledy) does about 6g, I think
Ginko (60mg)
Curcumin (500mg)
Along with the normal 1000mg. omega 3, 400mg vitamin e
He also takes an enteric coated aspirin at bed, reg. not baby
We're still in trial mode, so things might be adjusted as we go, but so far, so good.
AC
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:52 pm
by Terry
Thanks Cheer.
I may copy.
I appreciate it.
Terry
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:28 am
by cheerleader
Great, Terry, Hope it helps-
Only recommendation would be to take on one new thing at a time, so you can make sure nothing is harming you. Start with the oils, add the spices and herbs, than move onto the enzymes if you're still feeling you need to. Jeff was still hypercoagulating after oil and spices, so that's why we added the enzymes and an aspirin...but that may be too much for others.
Every body is different...
AC