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Everyone is getting on the worm bandwagon. This article includes a nice image of Lyon's lady wife.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7856095.stm

OK Bob, I should have known sooner or later your theory would prove itself. I've been having a bitch of a time trying to get LDN through proper channels, I can't wait to ask my Doc for worms!
Lars

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Jasper wrote:We learned recently that it is legal to ship treatment using courier services like FedEx.

OK, so you obviously have a contact with a shovel, and knowledge of the postal system. Is there somewhere these guys advertise / sell their product on the web?

Jasper wrote:Because of the courier rates (I don't think anyone told them fuel prices have fallen) shipping domestically within the USA is $100.00 and internationally is $150.00.

At those price differentials, I might buy em a trip to Africa, where they may meet and bring some REAL parasitic friends from.

Jasper wrote:Although we have not yet found a country where this is forbidden since it is governed by a treaty there may be countries for which this is not possible.

I have had Goats Serum (ie Aimspro) shipped from the UK on Dry Ice. This sounds all possible.

Jasper wrote:Essentially this option is the same as multi-dose therapy but payment is tied to the delivery of each dose and is therefore more manageable.

hmmmm... I would hate to think of home storage for pig worms...

Jasper wrote:We also have more treatment options for various diseases which we have developed

again, do they have a web site, or is this all done in seedy bars and backrooms?

As far as the article goes, I think the worm sales people need someone in PR to push out some more friendly photos. This is truly "A face only a mother could love." and surprising enough, lyon...

coochi-cooochi-koo, whos a pretty boy then

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I looked at their web site, there was no mention in their products page, of swine whip worm. At this stage, I would only consider a parasite with a known (short) lifespan, and less known side-effects.

It also concerned me they were going for the "organic" early childhood on these worms, with human faeces in the mix. I'm sorry, but from a place like Mexico, I would not be ordering this mix.

ps: I had to edit the above post with text of what went through my head every time I see the worm photo.

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Lyon wrote:I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention "the "organic" early childhood".

What I was subtly referring to was

WormTherapy + wrote:The hookworm ova are incubated in growth medium that includes human feces. This is required to ensure that the hookworm are robust and healthy.

and yes I understand they say they sterilize it, and I can get the idea how they would be "better", but, as you say, this is "abhorrent". Especially coming from a country with Mexico's medical reputations.

A few years ago, a close friend of mine suffering from IBS for many years, saw a well respected specialist. This Dr actually proposed his unapproved treatment of "faeces transplant". My advice to the friend plays back in my own head. In short, it sounds like it would work, but if he does not know enough to know exactly what is needed to be transplanted from the pile of poo (ie separate out the thing or substance that does the healing), then he does not know enough to perform the procedure (ie know what else could happen etc etc etc). Yes, this litmus test is a sliding scale applied by an individual...

Lyon wrote:don't lose interest in the science if you have a genuine interest in the events which led to the onset of immune dysfunctions in modern society.

Bob, I think you know I am actually not a supporter of the "Hygiene Hypothesises", in its current form, however, I think medicine has a long way to go before they may find a better or actual solution.

Therefore, I see helminth treatment as a possibility till something better comes along, most likely not in our lifetime.

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Lyon wrote:Obviously I'm not in a position to badmouth anyone else's "treatment" of choice ...

My friend did not take that treatment option, but the dr obviously had others that did. From the humerus explanation I got, he had "donors" ready ...um...er ... to go .

Lyon wrote:I'm never completely sure of your opinion on this subject in addition to the fact that when we discuss the "Hygiene Hypothesis"

Lets see if I can make my OPINION clearer.

Lyon wrote:1. "is the loss of evolved conditions the CAUSE of immune dysfunction?"

My belief is No, they are not the cause, but were "hiding" the issues.

Lyon wrote:2. "does adding certain aspects of evolutionary normal conditions after disease onset and in adulthood offer the possibility of benefit? Of a Cure?"

I believe they may offer benefit, and the evidence I have read hints strongly at this possibility. But cure is a big stretch, at this early stage.

Lyon wrote:I'm convinced that the evidence is conclusive that "loss of evolutionary normal conditions" was the main factor leading to immune dysfunction in modern society.

And that's really were we significantly part company. I believe there is another "fault", that the worms hid from us. ie they are ALMOST like a symptom treatment.

Lyon wrote:I find that sad in a way but I'm also convinced that "cures" are on the horizon which don't happen to have any relationship to the original cause of MS.

ooooo... that will need a definition of "cures" AND "horizon"

And I'm sure you understand, other people think the same of any hygiene hypothesis results.

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Lyon wrote:Perhaps a way to understand the situation is considering the well known fact that we would soon starve if we weren't aided by bacteria to help us digest our food. I don't need to tell you that the bacteria aren't literally 'human' but their assistance is now part of what is necessary to keep humans alive. Were humans originally created with the need for this help from bacteria or did we eventually evolve to hand that responsibility to the bacteria due to the fact that they were always present and doing it anyway and it was a waste of effort for us to maintain the ability? Who knows and who cares. What is....is and any other evidence was long ago lost to history.

Take intestinal flora away, most if not 100% of people will die. Take the worms away, 1 in 1000 get a non terminal condition. I see a HUGE difference and therefore I see them as VERY DIFFERENT issues.

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Lyon wrote:Gosh, it's a shame that you either don't understand or disagree because I think you've explained the situation perfectly to help others understand.

Huh? That sounds like a backhander, hidden as a compliment. Was that what you were aiming for?

Please explain to me how I have misunderstood the point (if I had?) you were making with you're example about intestinal flora, please.

Lyon wrote:A much more accurate picture is that in the developed populations almost everyone is affected by allergy and/or asthma and/or autoimmunity to some degree.

Everyone, "some" a lot of non scientific words are being used here? Are you saying that in non developed countries there are none?

MAYBE to some degree, not 100%, and definitely not to the point of distraction; I personally would expect with a complex organisms that there will always be this case, from evolutionary attempts to protect the organism (if you believe in evolution, which would be hard not to while discussing the hygiene hypotheses); especially now that we do not weed out the "weak" as effectively as we have historically. If the numbers were converted to confidence intervals etc, I would HAZARD a guess, that they would be in the range of unacceptable, as compared to what we expect from other theory's and propositions in peer reviewed articles.

Lyon wrote:So if anyone is hung up on the question "why doesn't everyone have MS?" they need to stand farther back from the tree and take notice of the forest.

Its those damn tree's that make it so hard to see the forest behind them.

The "devil" is in the detail. I look at it scientifically, in detail, not in broad sweeps. I think that we may have removed the infection before we had something to cover it 100%, but in a "forest" view, it was for the best for humankind; maybe not me in particular with MS, but I am the 1 in 1000 (or whatever the odds are).