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Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:15 am
by mrhodes40
That THEORY is that ms is caused by cell wall deficient germs and the whole problem is that your immune system is suppressed by vitamin D and causing thus the supposed infection to go wild...

and that if you decrease your vitamin d intake to deficient levels, like under 10, and at the same time take very high doses of benicar, an angiotensin (ARB) receptor blocker (usually used as a blood pressure medicine), this will activate your immune system and make it so super strong that the infection that causes MS will be relieved.

This theory is called the Marshall Protocol.

You can search this site for some "MS angle" information on it, but it is important to understand that the reason Trevor Marshall thinks benicar will activate the vitamin d receptor (while actual D will not) is from a computer model. He used this computer model to create all his theories, he is not a doctor, he is not even a medical professional, he is an electircal engineer with a PhD so he uses the term "doctor".

Please see this thread written by biodocfl who is a TIMS member who uses computer models to make new drugs (in legitimate pharmaceutical research).
CLICK HERE

Notice that biodocfl says that these models are well known to be unreliable and MUST BE FOLLOWED UP BY STANDARD RESEARCH TO VALIDATE THE SUPPOSED "FINDINGS". A computer model "result" is never taken as the truth until it can be shown to be true in real research.

In contrast, Trevor Marshall, an electical engineer whose field, EE, is entirely mathematical, puts out the incorrect notion that computer models are SUPERIOR to real reasearch. He claims regular lab research is "interpretive and prone to bias" while the computer models are "accurate".

While I believe it is possible for MS to be germ related, specifically Chlamydia pnuemoniae, the notion that it is helpful to reduce vitamin d intake to induce a clinical deficiency and that this will somehow help MS is dangerous to advance without rigorous studies, and I mean standard medical studies not an online group of people who are claiming success with no verification of that (it is well known that people who do not do well on the treatment are banned from the site and not allowed to post their experience).

Please be sceptical of this unproven theory. There is as JL said vast amounts of material supporting the addition of vitamin d to people with MS.
and as PX said this is an old idea, not an important advancement of any kind.

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:26 am
by peekaboo
touche' well written...H.

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:48 am
by patientx
Good summary, Marie.

I would just add that his original theory and treatment plan were developed for Sarcoidosis, under the assumption that it was caused by cell wall deficient bacteria. For some reason, this was picked up and applied to any disease that has a possible infectious cause.

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:54 am
by Wonderfulworld
Very interesting...excellent riposte MrRhodes too.
I actually had a brief bout of sarcoidosis 16 years ago, but it resolved itself. And I'm deficient in Vitamin D despite 3 years of supplementation.
TBH I'm not sure WHAT to think any more. :roll:

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:30 pm
by jimmylegs
ww i was just reading that boron affects your body's ability to deal with d3 have you ever heard about that?
what's your daily? have u ever done a megadose stint?

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:11 pm
by mrhodes40
Thanks! Glad it helped

I have personally almost gone for this thing. I had to work very hard to understand it, then worked just as hard to decide it was NOT a good theory.

I suggest anyone who is thinking of it study it hard and read all the material they can. The most damning thing is that when you get down to it and follow the rabbit hole of their theories, at the bottom, you always get down to "molecular genomics". In other words, at the heart of every idea, it comes from that computer model, not from real studies.

They talk about real studies, but they approach them from the beleif that the computer model has given them some factual basis first, the real study is then assigned the role of supporting the theory or of being wrong.
There is no room there for actual scientifc debate.

I was most pleased to learn at the knee of biodocfl and grateful for his time to help me understand how those molecular genomic programs are known to be in the real world of actual researchers doing pharmaceutical reseasrch They are an important tool, but not fool proof. Their role is to help reduce the number of scientific experiments you have to do in the lab by letting you know ahead of time the things that will NOT work ---but they cannot tell for certain what WILL work.

Glaxo smith kline actually did a study on the most popular molecular genomics programs available to see how well they work and if a single program was superior. The result was that no program was correct all of the time and that the different programs all had things they did better and things they did more poorly than the others.

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/20 ... _match.php

If you read through the paper, technical as it is, you see how really bad these results are. You will find it hard to imagine someone would EVER have the arrogance to imagine that such a thing, just because it is mathematical is somehow "accurate". THAT is a person overly impressed with computers, and insufficiently humble about their limitations. No human being should put their health in the hands of a computer apologist with no respect for limitations of the program in question.

It is easy to see why biodocfl, a genuine researcher, uses several programs to screen things THEN does an actual study.

By the way, Marshall uses a program available for free on the internet.

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:40 pm
by patientx
By the way, Marshall uses a program available for free on the internet.
That's not so damning; I got a whole operating system for my PC for free over the internet.

But I'm glad you took the time to read through his theory and figure out where it is flawed. The guy can throw some medical jargon. I'm open to non-conventional theories; but I read enough to think this is crackers. Relying only on computer simulations clinched it for me. He even coined a new phrase (at least his website is the only place I've seen it): "in silico."

I'm an electrical engineer by trade. And we use computer simulation software on a daily basis. It's easier to change things and try them in software before you actually build something. But the accuracy depends on the models. And, in the end, we also verify on the bench with a real piece of hardware.

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:58 pm
by CureOrBust
his "theory" is specifically for another medical condition

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:08 am
by sou
Hi.

We have had a course in computer assisted molecular modeling and simulations. One important conclusion was that algorithms of today give different results compared to the algorithms of yesterday. We can easily assume that algorithms of tomorrow will give different results from those of today.

At the rise of bioinformatics, big pharmas thought that simulations could replace classic lab research. But that didn't happen. Even worse, molecules tested with older algorithms will have to be tested again and again with newer. I wonder how many drugs have been erroneously thrown to the rubbish bin.

In conclusion, simulation is a very useful tool for evaluating probabilities. But just like you can't use a hammer to unscrew, you can't simulate and expect to have a 100% accurate model of the functionality of a cell, not to mention a zillion cells that make up a human body.

sou

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:09 am
by Wonderfulworld
Computer and mathematical models are easily controlled....well, easier than live humans :lol: . I don't feel that this theory is a runner for me.

JL :
No boron in my multi but the new cal/mag/d3 tablet I got recently includes boron in it. My current daily D3 is 5000iu, has been since November. Calcium 1400mg, Mag 750-1000mg.

Off topic, but an interesting one for you JL! - found that migraines are linked to D3 deficiency/insufficiency. Also Cal/Mag. So I upped my magnesium this month and for the first time in 6 months I got through a month without a migraine. For some reason I can tolerate up to 1000mg mag at the moment but in 3 doses during the day.

Due to visit neuro on 20th April, will be getting D3 test then, my gp is at a loss as to what to do so I'll check with neuro. The dept is doing work on vit D receptor genes; see: http://www.stvincents.ie/E.R.C/Neurology_Group.htm

Sorry for wandering off topic to the rest of the people on the thread :oops:

Testing your children for D3 levels?

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:23 am
by Wonderfulworld
Having read so much about vitamin D3 and MS recently I got my now 14 month old son tested for D3 levels.

The rest of you MS-D3-fans will be happy for us when I tell you that his level is 76nmol, just into the normal range. Yay!

The reason I'm posting is in case any of you MS parents are interested in getting your children tested for D3 levels, based on this news from Feb this year. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... ncy_and_MS

I am a sun-fan and have been taking 200% RDA vitamin D for the years prior to my pregnancy. I also got as much sun (albeit very limited in Ireland) as I could during the pregnancy. During the pregnancy I chose a pre-natal supplement with vitamin D in it.

DESPITE all this I was insufficient in vitamin D after I gave birth and have continued until last Nov at my last test.

**I was concerned about my sons' level of Vitamin D as he would inherit my levels of the vitamin. **

I have been giving him approved Vit D3 drops (see: http://www.fsai.ie/details.aspx?id=6984) and I got him tested at 1 year, so that his GP and I could see how his levels were.

I find it very interesting that despite the supplementation he is just inside the normal range. His GP advises he continue the drops and get tested again in a few months. I am so grateful to other ThisisMS'er's for the information about all this and I am hoping that I have reduced my son's risk for MS a bit.

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:57 am
by jimmylegs
that is great ww. cheerleader fixed her migraines with magnesium (among other things) also. pretty neat huh!
hope you hear that d3 is improving on the 20th :) maybe the boron will help.

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:00 am
by jimmylegs
good job ww, very important.
see if you can get the level up over 100, for lowest ms risk!

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:14 am
by mrhodes40
The scary thing about this particular protocol is the low, low vitamin D. I mean, getting people down under 10 8O

Here's a good reason not to do that
Association of vitamin D metabolite levels with relapse rate and disability in multiple sclerosis.Smolders J, Menheere P, Kessels A, Damoiseaux J, Hupperts R.
School for Mental Health and Neuroscience, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. j.smolders@mumc.nl

BACKGROUND: Multiple Sclerosis is associated with low serum levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D). We investigated the association between serum levels of 25(OH)D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25(OH)2D), the biologically active metabolite, and clinical MS severity as expressed by EDSS-score and relapse rate. STUDY-DESIGN: Cross-sectional study. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Serum samples from 267 MS patients were collected for 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D measurement. Clinical MS parameters at the date of serum sampling were determined. Results: Both metabolite levels were significantly lower in the progressive forms compared to the relapsing remitting (RR)MS phenotype. In RRMS patients (disease course < or = 5 years), high 25(OH)D levels were associated with a high chance of remaining relapse-free. Low 25(OH)D levels were associated with high EDSS-scores. 1,25(OH)2D was not directly associated with relapse rate or EDSS-score, and was dependent of age and 25(OH)D level. CONCLUSION: Serum levels of 25(OH)D were associated with both relapse rate and disability in MS patients. These results are suggestive for a disease modulating effect of the serum concentrations of 25(OH)D on MS. The low circulating 1,25(OH)2D levels in progressive MS are due to older age and lower 25(OH)D levels. The potential consequences for vitamin D supplementation in MS will be discussed.
FROM HERE

The MP claims the proof that MS is a "TH1" disease according to their vitamin d parameters is that they say MSers all have low 25D and high 1,25D. What is happening, according to their theory, is that the germs are making 1,25D directly in the body. 1,25d is the active metabolite and is actually a hormone, a well known fact.

The computer model comes into play here again because Marshall says that according to is computer simulation, 1,25D, is able to bind and activate the steroid receptors in the same way prednisone or something like that would.

Ergo, they claimthat all MSers are walking around as if on steroids all the time. They say that's why taking vitamin d seems to help MS, it is as if taking a steroid. They claim that this is why MSers have this theoretical germ rampant in our bodies that we canoot defeat, our immunity is severely hampered by this theoretical chronic steroid stimulation and we will never get better unless we get rid of the vitamin D.

But high 1,25D is not what is seen in studies on MS and vitamin D like the examples above and below, which checked both metabolites.

So the claim that the 25D is being converted into 1,25D by germs in your body thus leaving the 25D low and the 1,25D high is not supported.

ANOTHER PAPER HERE LOW 1,25d AND 25D

As an added element it is absurd to imagine that the body could function if it willy nilly could allow one hormone, 1,25d, to activate the receptors of another hormone, corticosteroids. How oculd yor body function at all it that were true?

There is not one peer reviewed medical paper anywhere that shows that 1,25D can bind and activate the steroid receptors.

Additionally, the molecular genomic shape of a hormone is not the only thing that allows it to bind and activate a particular receptor pocket, there are additional proteins involved:CLICK FOR PAGE ON RECEPTOR PROTEINS HERE

These threads live for a long time I wanted to add enough that some future person looking at this marshall protocol and coming to TIMS for material would have what they need. As I said I almost went for this once...scary

I know I saw a study last year that showed supplementing with vitamin D reduced lesions on MRI...can anyone add that to this thread as well? I can't find it :oops:

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:58 am
by SarahLonglands
Marie, this has just been published in Brain:
http://tinyurl.com/cowjzg Is it what you were looking for?
9321461 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Department of Neurology, Institute for Neurological Research Dr. Raúl Carrea, FLENI, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Although Vitamin D is best known as a modulator of calcium homeostasis, it also has immune modulating potential. A protective effect of Vitamin D on multiple sclerosis is supported by the reduced risk associated with sun exposure and use of Vitamin D supplements. Moreover, high circulating levels of Vitamin D have been associated with lower risk of multiple sclerosis. In this study, we measured 1,25 (OH)(2) Vitamin D and 25 (OH) Vitamin D levels in multiple sclerosis patients separated into different clinical subgroups according to disease status. In addition, direct effects of 1,25 (OH)(2) Vitamin D on ex vivo CD4+ T cells and myelin-peptide specific T cell lines were investigated to gain more insight into putative regulatory mechanisms in the disease pathogenesis. One hundred and thirty-two Hispanic patients with clinically definite multiple sclerosis were studied, 58 with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis during remission, 34 during relapse and 40 primary progressive multiple sclerosis cases. Sixty healthy individuals matched with respect to place of residence, race/ethnicity, age and gender served as controls. Levels of 25(OH)D(3) and 1,25(OH)(2)D(3), measured by ELISA were significantly lower in relapsing-remitting patients than in controls. In addition, levels in patients suffering relapse were lower than during remissions. In contrast, primary progressive patients showed similar values to controls. Proliferation of both freshly isolated CD4+ T cells and MBP-specific T cells was significantly inhibited by 1,25(OH)(2)D(3). Moreover, activated Vitamin D enhanced the development of IL-10 producing cells, and reduced the number of IL-6 and IL-17 secreting cells. Notably, Vitamin D receptor expression was induced by 1,25(OH)(2)D(3) in both activated and resting cells. Interestingly, T cells were able to metabolize 25(OH)D(3) into biologically active 1,25(OH)(2)D(3), since T cells express alpha1-hydroxylase constitutively. Finally, 1,25(OH)(2)D(3) also increased the expression and biological activity of indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase, mediating significant increase in the number of CD4+CD25+ T regulatory cells. Collectively, these data suggest that 1,25(OH)(2)D(3) plays an important role in T cell homeostasis during the course of multiple sclerosis, thus making correction of its deficiency may be useful during treatment of the disease.
Sarah :?: