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Red letter day for metronidazole
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:23 am
by SarahLonglands
Today David heard from the journal "Infection" published in Germany by Urban and Vogel that a letter originally written many months ago by Charles Stratton and himself, in response to a paper etitled:
Long-term Antibiotic Treatment with Roxithromycin in Patients with Multiple Sclerosis
by R. Woessner et al, has finally been published in the October issue.
The original paper came to the conclusion that long term use of roxithromycin was no use against multiple sclerosis. Their idea of long term use was pulses over about twelve weeks. The letter pointed out the error of this and for the first time ever, talked of the use of pulsed metronidazole (flagyl) in a peer reviewed journal. So the many months of waiting on tenterhooks for this letter to appear have paid off.
Being printed as a letter, there is no abstract, but this could have been used as one:
It has been claimed that, were Chlamydophila pneumoniae a factor in the initiation, relapse and progression of Multiple Sclerosis, roxithromycin would ameliorate the disease. We disagree; macrolides alone are unlikely to eliminate the organism but instead force it into a persistent non-replicating cryptic formi, untreatable with conventional therapy. The cryptic form is likely to be a stringent response marked by a switch to anaerobic respiration, as occurs with intraphagosomal Mycobacterium tuberculosis. The cryptic form is likely to be susceptible to metronidazole. Tissue culture and mouse studies confirm this. We have informally treated a number of patients with MS with a combination of macrolides and doxycycline to induce the cryptic state, later adding metronidazole to kill it. A response akin to a Jarisch - Herxheimer reaction is not uncommon. C pneumoniae-specific antibodies often rise on treatment, indicating the liberation of bacterial antigens. In many patients neurological progression has halted and then been reversed, a rare event in the natural history of MS. We briefly report on two patients with progressive disease. This preliminary information is given here as evidence to support the theses: (a) C pneumoniae has a pathogenic input into MS (b) conventional monotherapy does not eradicate chronic infections with this organism (c) A nitroimidazole is a key component in the treatment of chronic C pneumoniae infection.
Rica and I are the two patients briefly talked about.
Sarah
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:47 am
by robbie
if i stay on the mino long enough will i be able to tell if it's helping before i start nitroimidazole or do you need this for the abx therapy to work like the article says.
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:05 am
by gwa
Good questions robbie. I have been wondering the same thing.
Right now I am just guessing when to add to the abx since I am only taking the doxy and NAC and have had no increase in symptoms.
gwa
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:34 am
by SarahLonglands
Hello both,
Before they started adding flagyl at Vanderbilt, people were just taking the bacteristatics and getting better if they stayed on them for long enough, because every cell in your body eventually dies and most are replaced, so all the Cpn stalled and unable to reproduce will eventually be cleared away. More recently, there is someone over at CPN who was being treated for chronic fatigue. She was allergic to the nitroimidazoles, but managed to clear the Cpn nonetheless.
Robbie, I started metronidazole after three months but I knew already that the treatment was helping. In fact I never went through the agonies that some people seem to when starting pulses. My worst period was the first three weeks after starting abx, but I slept most of that time.
Its true that everyone is different, and responses are not necessarily due to age, although as with gwa, the older you get, the more difficult it is to tell what is happening.
The talk of nitoimidazoles being a key component in the abstract is really because people love trials and a trial that didn't involve this component is a) going to have to go on for too long, or b) not be successful in eradicating the pathogen.
Sarah
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:01 am
by gwa
"although as with gwa, the older you get, the more difficult it is to tell what is happening. "
This is true. Most days I don't even remember what I read 5 minutes ago.
gwa
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:27 am
by SarahLonglands
I hope you knew I didn't mean that the way it sounds!!
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:49 pm
by MacKintosh
First, this is also a red letter day for Drs. David Wheldon and Charles Stratton. Second, it's a red letter day for all of us. Getting this published is huge. Getting the word out is vital.
Oh, and Robbie, you will have improvement before ever starting flagyl. Brain fog lifts first in most of us. It's been reported repeatedly. Then, a general feeling of well-being tickles the back of your mind, almost like a tease of the good things to come. It's weird, but it sure helps you feel like you're headed down the right road.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:17 am
by gwa
Sarah,
I took the post as humorous. However, it is probably correct too.
Since I and others, have downplayed some of our symptoms for years, it may take a while to realize that they are gone.
Throwing out the small nuisances was always easier than getting bogged down with every little problem.
Am definitely looking forward to more medical writers posting this groundbreaking Cpn news and getting it to the mainstream media.
gwa
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:33 am
by robbie
Then, a general feeling of well-being tickles the back of your mind, almost like a tease of the good things to come. It's weird,
I will remember this mac through this whole thing, i feel it too
Do you think that i should go back to taking one pill in the morning and one at night or does it matter. I have been taking them (100mgx2)both in the morning.
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:47 am
by MacKintosh
I posted this elsewhere, but yes, Robbie, you will notice improvement before you get to the point of taking metronidazole. Most people report the brain fog lifts a little first, then energy levels improve in a subtle way. Usually, that's enough to keep you going, because you know you're headed in the right direction. Also. once the brain fog lifts a little, our judgement and ability to reason and concentrate improves. These really help when making decisions about our health, I've found.
What I did was keep my head busy with other things. Once I'd gotten over the hurdle of finding a doctor to prescribe, I decided not to worry about every little thing. I took the pills, pushed through my life and tried very had not to dwell on the treatment or results. I would have driven my self into psych care if I'd let it control my every waking moment, which I could easily have done. It's normally just my nature to focus on the details. I'm glad I made this decision; it made the first few weeks much easier and I read some great books back then!
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:15 am
by SarahLonglands
Robbie, it really doesn't matter if you split them or take them both together, so long as you take them. That isn't just me saying that, I got it from the doctor's mouth!
Sarah
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:22 am
by MacKintosh
I'm with Sarah. I've always taken them together. A few people have reported stomach upset when taking both at once, so they do morning and night.
Once you're on all three meds, though, it becomes difficult to space them out and not have conflicts with probiotics, charcoal or the supps that have to be taken far from doxy. Much easier, and obviously still effective, to take the two doxy at once. Sarah improved. Katman improved. David Wheldon (though not with MS) improved. I improved. No need to split them unless you have a special situation personally with tolerance.
Hi
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:56 pm
by Iskierka
Tell me about how do feel now, please. Are you still on Dr. Wheldon's treatment? I am SPMS, month ago I had CCSVI but I don't see any improvement and I am looking for some other treatment.
Take care!
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:15 am
by SarahLonglands
Hello Isierka,
f you are talking to me, then I finished my husband's regime more than two yeas ago, after four years. In all that time I have had no MS episode and all in all am much better than I was six or seven years ago. It isn't easy, but it is worth it: I was an artist who lost the ability to paint, but now I have got it all back.
Sarah
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:24 am
by Iskierka
Hello.
Thank for your reply. Ot is amazing what are ypou writing. Can you give me some contact to dr Wheldon?
Regards.
Iza