This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

I have never used the Arthrostim so I can't speak from personal experience. It's worth a try in your case as you have limited options.

Hi Nigel,
I am a big fan of Dr. Wise Young. I mention a study in my book that was done at Rutgers Universtiy by Dr. Young on circulation to the cord. His conclusion is that venous hypertension in the cord is one of the most overlooked causes of ischemia of the cord. In addition to the cord, my theory is that venous hypertension is one of the most overlooked causes of decreased blood and CSF flow in the brain. Chronic ischemia is one of the primary suspects in neurodegenerative conditions of the brain and cord. While CPn may play a role in venous hypertension it is a relatively minor role compared to spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis of the spine, which compress the epidural space and vertebral veins. The arterial supply to the cord can also be effected by spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis but that's another story for later as it is too lenghty to go into here.

hi dr. flanagan, you may or may not be aware of this research. not taking away from the spinal importance. to me it is more like the "hand and the glove." i've been wondering about the lymph- i don't recall much lymph attention. like i had no idea every vessel in our body has it's lymph cleaning up adding good to. if it's working right and if it's not--nothing does.

heck no wonder we worsen the lack of movement the shallow breathing--this lymph needs a pump.

http://techie-buzz.com/science/brain-dr ... ystem.html

Hi Blossom,
I haven't read the actual study but Sharon Richardson sent me a link to the press release about a month ago. The CSF system has long been recognized as the lymphatic system of the brain, which I discuss in my book. This study simply shows more detail about the extensions of the perivascular pathways called the Virchow-Robin spaces. I have a picture in my book on the perivascular (VR) spaces. This study shows that the glial cells called astrocytes form channels that branch off of the perivascular spaces and connect to the the parenchyma of the brain. Scientists were aware of the network previously but they couldn't actually see it. Now with today's technology we can. Because these pathways are made of glial cells the researchers refer to the system as the "glymphatic system" of the brain because the perivascular pathways serve as the lymphatic system of the brain. In actuallity, the brain doesn't have a lymphatic system and the "glymphatic system" is not part of the lymphatic system of the body. There are key differences, which I discuss in my next book.

thanks dr. flanagan.

Your welcome Blossom.

The following comment was posted on my wordpress blog.

Hi, Uprightdoctor! I have a hopefully easy question about a long-lasting problem.
About 9 months ago I came down with very strange and scary symptoms after painting ceilings in my new house over a period of a couple of months (that’s in addition to a few sports injuries and a couple of car accidents throughout my younger yrs.) One day I took myself to ER with a sudden onset of tachycardia, loss of normal proprioception, bilat. upper and lower extremities numbness/tingling, abnormal visual/spacial perception, inability to sit or drive d/t ataxia. Two trips to ER, CTs and initial neurologist consult brought no answers. They attributed my super-dilated pupils to anxiety or drug use, neither of which I have or do. After suffering with this for a couple of months with no help from anyone, I did some googling of symptoms and realized I am dealing with something quite serious and directed myself to Phoenix Barrow’s neurological center and asked for an MRI and cervical spine X-Ray. The tests revealed Chiari I with 6 mm cerebellar tonsils herniation and C3-C5 subluxations. Of course, the neurologist immediately recommended for me to see a neurosurgeon, stating that the only treatment for Chiari is surgery. While feeling too scared to see the neurosurgeon right away, I continued to read about these conditions, and came across several articles about C1 and C2 subluxations that can cause or potentiate Chiari formation (my neck discomfort started pointing by then to upper cervical area). I wondered if these subluxations caused Chiari, and could fixing these subluxations make Chiari go away? So, I found an orthogonal treatment chiropractor and had 4 sessions so far with temporary alleviation of symptoms (I can’t see him often enough, but I am still hopeful.) This Monday I had a cine-MRI done that was ordered by the neurosurgeon. The MRI ‘clearly shows NO CHIARI’, with “normal CSF flow ventrally around the cerebellar tonsils in the region of the foramen magnum, however there is absent flow dorsally.” I have to wait a month before seeing the neurologist and neurosurgeon again. I have always felt that I am more of an orthopedic problem with neuro symptoms, but this MRI finding bothers me. So, here are the questions:
1. What S&S would pts have with no CSF flow dorsally?
2. Is there anything else I can do to make things better and expedite healing? I am obviously trying to avoid neurosurgery. I am tired of being tired. Body-building used to be my hobby, and now I can barely drag my feet.

Sincerely and respectfully,

Alfiya J.

New thought/question.
If we have noisy joints in our necks for instance, imo that is a sign of inflammatory processes.

*** What is causing the noise or fluid type build up?

*** Is it simply a reaction to injury of instance or is it a long term inflammatory issue?

It seems to me from my own current experiences that if I have CPn I have the situation where the bacterium is 'invading' anything and everything around my body. Odds are that inflammation is a good host/home. So my thoughts lead to if we all carry the bacterium, some have higher some have lower immune protection what is happening when we have an injury.
The comments that after whiplash or after injury from a fall are in my mind not enough of a reason for the commencing of a disease like MS. It takes something to be present and waiting to cross into areas of our body eg across the BBB and cause a symptom group that may be labelled eg Fibro, Transverse Myelitis, Chron's disease, Acclaimer's, or MS.
Enough said for now!
Regards,
Nigel

Edited, just to clarify,
I am not of the belief that CPn is the cause of any thing or everything, what I am learning is that being on NAC has given me some insight and looking at the research into what can happen when a bacteria or virus enters the CNS or crosses the BBB is a lottery!
There are lots of insights from Stephen Buhner
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/
as one example of what our system is needing to balance with our environment. It's not about wiping out all the possible invaders to our fragile system it is about managing the well being of our system and making it Healthy and uninhabitable to invaders such as bacteria and viruses.
Another insight for me was from;
http://m.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issu ... /germs.htm

Nigel,
No one is one hundred percent sure what causes the joint popping and grinding sounds. One theory is that is caused by gases in synovial joint fluids that cavitate (explode) upon compression such as occurs with joint movement. Dry joints, cartilage and connective tissues in the shoulders, hands, knees and spine can click, pop or make grinding sounds. Most joint sounds are purely mechanical in nature and not at all due to inflammation. On the other hand severely inflammed imobille joints, such as occurs in swollen sprained ankle or in conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis where the joints are fused are often silent due to the swelling and immobility.

I agree with you that bacteria, viruses and other pathogens attack weakened tissues. As the saying goes, "Flies don't bring garbage. They feed on it."

As far as trauma and neurodegenerative disaeases are concerned, no one questions the connection between head trauma and traumatic brain injuries. Likewise, no one questions the connection between severe spinal trauma and injuries to the cord. Trauma can damage and cause permanent injuries to any tissue, especially delicate nerves. It can have immediate and long-term consequences. A severely twisted knee early in life for example can result in premature degeneration of the cartilage that shows up in mid-life. The long-term consequences of injuries to the spine are multiple. Some show up years later. Aside from obvious mechanical compression of nerves, among other things, degenerative conditions of the spine can affect blood and CSF flow in the brain and cord. In this regard, chronic ischemia (strokes), edema (injuries) and obstruction to CSF flow (hydrocephalus, tumors) are known major causes of neurodegenerative conditions in the brain and cord.

A follow up on to my search for answers for lots of things that are linking the MS experience of us all.
CPn Help/pdfs/ChronicDisease.pdf

"Viable C. pneumoniae circulating
in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs)
may reach various human
tissues after an inflammatory trigger
event occurs in the tissue and then
cause chronic infection in the tissue.
This might create or worsen a chronic
disease process. The purpose of this
article is to review the association of
C. pneumoniae with chronic human
diseases."
This article I have seen before and discounted it's content. Now I have a dx of CPn persistent infection I started to look around at data on the subject of CPn and Lyme and have found many links to a 'big picture' of what our symptoms are doing.
When the CPn dies off it creates two endotoxins which the immune system responses to and works to remove. This has a by product of Iron being deposited, interesting! The actual endotoxins cause symptoms that are very much the same as PwMS experience and a host of other diseases depending on where in the body the process occurs.
In my day 5 experience of being on the David Wheldon protocol with antibiotics I am finding that my symptoms are on the increase, and most of all any muscular injuries from the past are where I am feeling the most effect, I am also more Fatigued and weak.
My history of spine injuries are all noticeable in the increase of discomfort/pain and especially weakness. Places such as both shoulders where I have torn rotator cuffs are sore and weak. Leg muscle strains from the past sporting injuries are sore and weak. Injuries to my hands/fingers muscles and joints are sore and weak. I had an eye socket injury to my left eye as a teenager, the same problematic 'MS' eye is discharging on the first couple of days on the ABx.

Co-incidence?

Regards,
Nigel

I read the article several times before it sank in, thoughts Team?

NZer1 wrote:...In my day 5 experience of being on the David Wheldon protocol with antibiotics I am finding that my symptoms are on the increase, and most of all any muscular injuries from the past are where I am feeling the most effect, I am also more Fatigued and weak.
My history of spine injuries are all noticeable in the increase of discomfort/pain and especially weakness. Places such as both shoulders where I have torn rotator cuffs are sore and weak. Leg muscle strains from the past sporting injuries are sore and weak. Injuries to my hands/fingers muscles and joints are sore and weak. I had an eye socket injury to my left eye as a teenager, the same problematic 'MS' eye is discharging on the first couple of days on the ABx.

...thoughts Team?

I wasn't able to connect to your link so I didn't read the article. However, I don't see any of these negative adverse reactions as positive signs. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, fatigue and weakness are signs of diminished chi (vitality). Fixed muscle and joint pain and soreness are signs of blood and chi stagnacy, which are associated with inflammation and edema. Any type of discharge is looked at in terms of its consistency. Thin. watery and whitish discharges are signs of cold or coolness such as a thin runny discharge from the nose after being outside in the cold. Thicker discharges that are yellow, red or brownish are signs of heat (inflammation). Acute inflammation is necessary to fight infections. Chronic inflammation is bad and damages tissues.

I don't know the particular antibiotic(s) you are on but antiobiotics have long been associated in alternative health care with candida, chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromaylagia. The article below is to more recent article in the NYT on the side effects of the latest generation of antiobiotics.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/1 ... e-effects/

CPn Help/pdfs/ChronicDisease.pdf

Dr F,
the understanding that I have about CPn die off is that it creates 2 endotoxins which are what creates the symptoms. So my immune system is now reacting to this load and working on eliminating it. So there is an immune system overload in my system, and likely an inflammation process.
One by-product is Iron deposition according to my reading!

The way the bacteria has multiplied over time in the injury/inflammation places is where there is a big learning for us all.

The Bacteria is known for causing Vasculitis issues, which would fit with many diseases called either Autoimmune or degenerative.

I am finding that the Alternative Health practioners have known about this in diseases especially Lyme and CPn and the association with MS etc for years according to people like Stephen Buhner.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/

I am guessing that Jimmylegs will have seen this awareness in her reading as well.

Regards,
Nigel

The link provided by NZer1 is not working because the system automatically "corrects" it so that the word "Help" can be read. A working link can be found below:
http://www.cpn%68elp.org/pdfs/ChronicDisease.pdf

Something to think about, as yet there has been no link in research between Brain or Cord Lesions and symptoms found in MS.
To add to that many of the MS symptoms are also found in other diseases such as Chiari Malformations, Fibromyalgia, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and many others.
The findings of diseases such as CPn in Micro-Biology studies has been rather high,
C. pneumoniae and MS
PCR/S Results
• Relapsing remitting MS: 17/17 (100%)
• Progressive MS: 19/20 (95%)
• Overall MS: 36/37 (97%)
A quote;
"The most common stealth infections we have studied and found amongst fatiguing and neurodegenerative diseases are Chlamydia pneumoniae, Mycoplasma and Borrelia burgdorferi."

CONCEPT OF STEALTH INFECTIONS
Submitted by Bec Mills

As a Soft Tissue Therapist I treat varying musculoskeletal aches and pains that are commonly associated with muscle tightness and postural imbalances. However when the cause of symptoms are complicated or ‘unknown’ as commonly found with autoimmune conditions, it can be hard to find treatment that works. My interest in chronic illness stems from my father having Bipolar disorder and my grandmother passing with Alzheimer’s. This interest became my passion, after meeting a patient who had been successfully treated in the U.S for her chronic pain condition Fibromyalgia. The news gets better, because the evaluation and treatment this patient underwent is not common practice here in Australia, I had an excuse to travel to the U.S and meet with leading field experts to learn more.


According to Microbiologist Professor Garth Nicolson, founder of the Institute For Molecular Medicine, California U.S, stealth type bacterial infections can play a causal role in illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, Arthritis, Autism and Lyme Disease.

In an interview, Dr Nicolson explains to me that chronic infections can lead to auto-immune problems, disorders involving the central and peripheral nervous systems and play havoc with nerve transmission. The infection process causes damage to cell membranes which leads to fatigue, loss of energy, loss of ability to perform functions, and can impair our ability to think, remember, understand and sleep.

“Stealth infections are in general bacterial infections but in some cases can be viral infections. They get inside cells and hide inside cells and can’t be seen by the immune system. The most common stealth infections we have studied and found amongst fatiguing and neurodegenerative diseases are Chlamydia pneumoniae, Mycoplasma and Borrelia burgdorferi. These intracellular bacteria have different life forms, some of them are free swimming, some of them are inside cells, some of them are metabolically active and some forms are metabolically inactive. When they are metabolically inactive they are very difficult to find. Their genetic signature is not as strong.”

According to Dr Nicolson, when these underlying infections are identified they can be treated with a number of therapies such as combination anti-biotic therapy and addressing dietary requirements to boost the immune system. “Stealth infections are best identified by molecular means, such as examining DNA. They aren’t picked up in routine lab tests.”

This important process is not part of orthodox screening and treatment for stealth infections is not traditionally included in protocol for those suffering with chronic illness.
http://beyondthebandaid.com.au/concept- ... nfections/ "

This fits my thinking because of how my body is reacting leading up to day 8 on ABx.
I am finding that the body felt increases in symptoms is mirroring the way I progressed in reverse.
I have the belief that there is a body/muscular infection that has occurred at the same time or just before the lesions on my brain and spine became visible on MRI. I had MRI's done over 18 months and there was no sign of lesions and then at about 20 months from the first symptoms the lesions were seen.
Its as though the infection was happening in places where I had recent injuries and that became established and was also able to cross the BBB at the same time. I have been wondering how to prove the occurrence of injury and then symptoms and finally lesions?
Paul Thibault is there any other cases where injury was the first part of the clinical history. On TiMS Dr Flanagan has seen many patients who have had a history like mine and I believe that the thinking of CCSVI reflux has been used to focus on MRI Lesions as being the cause of symptoms totally without supporting evidence linking the two.

Happy reading,
Regards,
Nigel

I read through all the material on CPN and combination antibiotic therapy. Autoimmune-inflammatory conditions is a large and completely different topic unrelated to this thread. The pathogens aren't limited to just viruses and bacteria either. They also involve many microorganisms, toxins and even certain foods such as soybean, milk and wheat etc. That said, I find the diagnosis of CPn to vague and the wisdom behind prolonged use of multiple antiobiotics questionable and concerning. I am also concerned about the side effects.

Thanks Dr.
Can you point me in the direction of Literature that shows the cause of symptoms from Alignment please.

Can you help with the answer to why people have symptoms after Injury and then there is MRI evidence of lesions a period of time later?

Can you also help with documents that link symptoms to lesions or in your trade symptoms and injury?

There is no proof that symptoms are electrical or plumbing!
There could be logical explanation though!
I prefer to be able to follow the cause to the outcome as an engineer or mechanic has to in my Trades!
In Medicine there is no commitment to follow things from start to finish when finding the reason of symptoms, technology or not, and what is even worse those who 'Practice' are paid for visits rather than successes!

Regards,
Nigel