This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

Hello Tore,
An upright MRI to check the condition of your upper cervical ligaments is a good idea. While I suspect you have ligament damage and listhesis (slippage) due to ligament damage I doubt you have joint instability. My guess is that you have faulty (dyskinetic) and decreased range of motion, not excess range of motion. Upright MRI cervical flexion and extension views would be a good idea to check motion and joint instability. I disagree with the doctor as well regarding your lower spine. The displaced diaphraghm has nothing to do with the upper cervical spine and you have a kink in your thoracic spine with unlevel clavicles (collarbone). You also have significant misalignment of the pelvis but the image cuts off the top of the pelvis and leave out the lumbar spine. You may have an abnormal lumbar curvature.

If I were working on you I would address the full the spine, as well as the diaphragm. The hip flexor iliopsoas muscle attaches to the crura of the diaphragm and is a major cause of low back problems. Increased pressure in the thoracic cage due to the diplaced diaphragm can increase pressure in the vertebral veins and transmitted to the brain. Counterstraining and realigning the pelvis will balance the shoulders and relieve the tension on the neck. It would also help to balance and decrease the tension on the diaphragm.

Hi Dr. Flanagan, you asked for people who sent you PMs to post their experiences here in your thread. Here's hoping that others can learn from what I've learned the hard way:

First, patients should try to have annual/biannual brain, cervical, and thoracic MRIs. A comprehensive imaging record is crucial for many reasons.

Second, patients should understand the FINDINGS section of their MRI reports because neuros might only discuss findings of the cord and ignore findings of the spine:
1) Upper part--paragraph that discusses the cord (lesions).
2) Lower part--list that discusses the spine (vertebrae).

My neuro did not want to discuss these MRI findings of my cervical spine:
1. Bone spurs "indenting" and "flattening" cord.
2. Demyelinating lesions at same levels as bone spurs.
3. "Severe" central and foraminal stenosis.
4. Disc herniation.

Also, I knew not to bother to ask my neuro for an orthopedic/neurosurgeon referral, so I found my own. Hopefully, it's not too late for the spurs to be removed, lesions to heal, stenoses to be made wider, and disc rupture to be addressed. If I had insisted on more cervical MRIs through the years and hadn't trusted my neuros to tell me everything that I should have known, my situation might not be as bad as it is now.

Dr. Flanagan, according to the link below, cervical cord trauma, such as bone spurs, can cause cervical lesions, but can cervical cord trauma cause thoracic lesions?

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... RC_DfstKyw

Hope this post is helpful to someone.

Hello Poet,
Terrific post. I don't think that all patients need such frequent MRIs but certainly cases with histories of high risk sports and athletic injuries, such as yours, should be checked much sooner and rechecked periodically to monitor structural changes. It never ceases to amaze me how they continue to marginalize such significant deformation and degeneration of the spine. Some injuries of the spine cause permanent damage. Other injuries are associated with slow degeneration that starts to impact neighboring segments and the shape and curves of the spine. We could do much more to rehabilitate the spine and limit the degree of degeneration in those cases. For cases that can't be manually corrected or rehabilitated there are many good and fairly safe surgical options but they should be done before there is permanent damage to the cord. The other problem is getting the surgeons to recognize the problem. As I have mentioned before, I do suspect that spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis can cause cord lesions anywhere in the spine including the thoracic spine. And you don't need spurs to cause lesions. I only briefly covered the lower spine and lesions such as ALS it in my first book. I stopped at the shoulders. I will be covering the lower spine and lesions further on my website and blog. It will tie into my next book on the arterial side of the problem.

happypoet, i hope the surgeon you found is open minded and the best of the very best!!

i think your post will help many.

Thank You Pam, it's good to get insights and learn from others

Dr F would the disc bulges effect the flow of CSF?

That leads me to wonder if that also effects the blood flows of the Vertebrals? The Schelling effect of back flows/reflux!

As a side track of thought, my CPn journey, I started the third antibiotic pulse yesterday. WoW it has been hell on wheels. The effects have been major cognitive changes as well as head aches and body aches the endo-toxin/die off is large when I consider I have been on two antibiotics for 3 months and the NAC for 9 months. The other most impacting thing is that because I am having to bed rest with Fatigue I am getting VERY loud disc popping sounds from my spine, neck and thoracic. Any and every movement of flexation is noisy more so than how it was noisy before.
The Chiro adjustment was of benefit the other day but I lost it within a couple of days, I am due back there later next week.
I wish we had someone who is cervical dedicated and skilled in NZ, even better locally!

Regards,
Nigel

As I have mentioned many times on this thread, the epidural space lies between the cord and the spinal canal. The epidural space contains vertebral veins. Compression of the vertebral veins can cause venous hypertension. Spondylosis, scoliosis and stenosis can compress the vertebral veins. According to neurosurgeon Dr. Wise Young, an expert on traumatic cord injuries, venous hypertension is one of the most overlooked causes of degeneration of the cord. I have always maintained that disc bulges and bone spurs (spondylosis) etc., effect CSF flow. The Cine CSF flow studies of the cervical spine I have seen show it obstructing CSF flow. I further suspect that abnormal curvatures effect CSF flow. It's basic fluid mechanics.

Nigel,
Whatever the cause, the adverse myofascitis and other musculoskeletal reactions you are describing are signs of inflammation. Chronic inflammation is very destructive to all the tissues in the body, including the musculoskeletal system. You are harming your muscles and joints.

Thanks Dr,
I'm in a state of damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I need to decrease the CPn load and hopefully stop the progression of 'MS' type symptoms and I need to address the inflammation and halt the damage to my musculoskeletal system, plus I need to rectify the alignment issues in my spine as best possible, then also look at my vascular system after this and see if there are issues that can be modified, by lunch time would be good?

Under endo-toxin cloud today 48hrs after the first pulse
Regards,
Nigel

dr. flanagan, what do you think of ultra violet light blood irridation therapy? especially with the bacteria and viruses becoming immune to antibiotics and some people have a very hard time on them. also good for blood vessels amongst many other things.



http://www.altmeds.com/ultraviolet-blood

Good luck Nigel.

Blossom,
I have no idea how effective the UV light is for disinfecting the blood or the body in the short or long-term. It certainly sounds interesting. UV disinfectant systems have been around for awhile for swimming pools but most experts still prefer chlorine. My house is set up to plug in a UV disinfectant system for the water supply if necessary. I would want to see more information.

dr. flanagan, the hot tub i had had a blue light and when i bought it they said i did not need chemicals and being the one and only useing it i loved it as i controled temp. and chlorine and i don't get along well. i will say the water stayed like brand new. i never thought of the uv for my home water-i'm gonna check that out. i have city water with osmosis but also gravity flow spring water into my basement that can then be pumped throughout the house i used for yrs. growing up drinking the best fresh spring water in the world. i was around 8 yrs. old when i first drank water treated with chemicals and i promptly began to throw up. even yet if i drink much treated water that has not been filtered i feel half sick and my belly burns.

there's lots more info, just thought it is very interesting and as many known healing methods and "herbs" they have been suppressed. if you ever check it out better your thoughts are always respected and appreciated.

now back to the spine as this site is meant for.

uprightdoc wrote:Hello Poet,
Terrific post. I don't think that all patients need such frequent MRIs but certainly cases with histories of high risk sports and athletic injuries, such as yours, should be checked much sooner and rechecked periodically to monitor structural changes. It never ceases to amaze me how they continue to marginalize such significant deformation and degeneration of the spine. Some injuries of the spine cause permanent damage. Other injuries are associated with slow degeneration that starts to impact neighboring segments and the shape and curves of the spine. We could do much more to rehabilitate the spine and limit the degree of degeneration in those cases. For cases that can't be manually corrected or rehabilitated there are many good and fairly safe surgical options but they should be done before there is permanent damage to the cord. The other problem is getting the surgeons to recognize the problem. As I have mentioned before, I do suspect that spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis can cause cord lesions anywhere in the spine including the thoracic spine. And you don't need spurs to cause lesions. I only briefly covered the lower spine and lesions such as ALS it in my first book. I stopped at the shoulders. I will be covering the lower spine and lesions further on my website and blog. It will tie into my next book on the arterial side of the problem.

Thank you so much, Dr. Flanagan. Your answer is a great review and summary of the spine and your theories. I'm still perplexed why my neuro didn't advise me to see an orthopedic surgeon or neurosurgeon. He did, though, advise me to stop having AO chiro adjustments which I don't want to do. Should I have any worries about continuing with AO chiro now that I know the true condition of my cervical spine and cord? (Thoracic spine is fine, but mid-cord has had repeated symptomatic lesions).

Put another way, can lower spinal changes, that are supposed to occur over time with AO chiro (as I understand it), ever cause damage to nerve roots, arteries, and/or veins because those changes negatively impact already-existing arthritic vertebrae? Hope this makes sense! Also, can trauma to the spine (spondylosis, stenosis, scoliosis, fractures, etc.) cause lesions in the brain (sorry for my poor memory)?

Am looking forward to reading your new material.

If it's not working for you it's one thing, but telling you to stop AO correction for no good reason is either stupid or naive. It makes no sense at all. Your neuro needs to get up to speed about fluid mechanics in the brain. It's impossible for AO to make the condition in the lower spine worse. On the other hand, while it can help, upper cervical methods, such as AO, do not directly address a multitude of issues in the lower spine, such as spondylosis, scoliosis and stenosis and that's just a short list. Full spine methods are much better at addressing the issues directly. I have a vision of how conditions such as yours should be treated. We're not even close yet and very few doctors are up to the task.

uprightdoc wrote:I have a vision of how conditions such as yours should be treated. We're not even close yet and very few doctors are up to the task.

I have to ask -- what is your vision?

Thank you, again, for answering my question. I trust your opinion and appreciate being able to ask you. Since I know AO chiro is helping me, I'll continue with it.

History:
- thorough patient and family history along with diet, lifestyle and TCM conformation analysis for possible migraines and autoimmune-inflammatory conditions

Physical Exam:
- standard neurological and orthopedic tests, range of motion of all segments of the spine and extremities, trigger point testing, and kinesiological muscle tests for diagnosis and ongoing monitoring of condition as well as co-morbidities
- Anatometer by Benesh Corporation for posture analysis and ongoing monitoring
- BP, pulse and lung sounds, zhang fu solid and hollow organs, Mu alarm points, Shu associated points, triple burner, tongue, and iris inspection etc. for autonomic nervous system and TCM conformation anlaysis
- blood and urinanalysis

Imaging:
- Plain view x-rays of the full spine
- Upper cervical x-rays
- Upright MRI of the cervical, thoracic and lumbar segements of the spine
- MRA, MRV, doppler testing and Cine MRI for suspected circulatory problems

Treatment:
- upper cervical/craniopathy to correct and decompress the craniocervical junction
- Cox 8 Flexion-distraction tables for spondylosis, scoliosis, stenosis and tethering etc. in the lower spine
- pelvic blocking and heel lifts to correct pelvic misalignment and leg length discrepancies
- complete line of physiotherapy equipment for pre and post treatment as well as rehab
- acu-Tens for symptoms and neuroplasticity re-education of nerve centers and pathways
- TCM herbs and specific supplements etc. to treat autoimmune-inflammatory conditions, ischemia, edema and CSF flow
- custom exercises tailored to the patient's specific condition and co-morbidities
- endoscopic surgery to relieve blockage of the spinal canal and free tethering of the cord and nerve roots
- venoplasty, stents and shunts to improve blood and CSF flow
- decompression surgery

That's just a summary list.

^ I like this thinking, it's what many practitioners of alternative ideas of MS are proposing and it's so logical.

There are a few alternative theories on this board that coexist reasonably well, all seeking the goal of a better life for pwMS and ultimately seeking what causes the problem to start with. You never know, it may turn out to be some combination of a number of these theories that end up leading us all in the right direction.

Rather than beat the well trodden path that is accepted in mainstream medicine, lets do a full screen on potential MS sufferers from day one when the symptoms rear their ugly head.

Before they reach for the prescription pad for the next wonder drug that's being rolled out to "manage" the symptoms at $30,000 a pop thanks - shall we ask if there are fundamental physical, skeletal, cranial, jaw or venous issues beforehand? Why would you choose not to?

This is the single biggest irritation/frustration I have with this whole MS thing, the simple refusal to accept there could be another explanation by the mainstream. I've never come across a group of more closed minded individuals than the average MS Neurologist.