This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

Thanks Dr, I find now that time equals dollars rather than take the time necessary to find the pieces of detail needed.
As you say the basic physical exam by a doctor is done sitting in from of a computer asking questions rather than 'doing' the test manually.
Most break throughs in medical knowledge come from observing the basics and comparisons to others, who does that in a ten minute appointment?

I was always impressed by your approach Dr where the pieces of stick and string are used to test spine alignments against walls, no amount of expensive equipment is required in many tests, it is time and experience and an open mind!

;)
Nigel

NEW CLIP- educating the educated!!

good one nzer. been saying we are all individuals and as a patient to be thrown into a bushel, told you have ms or whatever and be told here take this drug we have to treat ms--keeping in mind you are no longer an individual this is what you got because we've told that---and there are millions taking drugs that really in the long run are bound to screw something else up but don't get too concerned about that because it might, maybe could, there's a chance that, not too many have died from yet, and some were thought to improve from for a little while, be sure to keep getting your liver and kidneys checked it can shut them down, on and on.

god forbid that possibly the spine or other things be looked into that treatment is way way less harmful or expensive. oh, i forgot, there's not enough research.

i'd be curious how much drug co.'s donate to medical schools to keep a lid on a lot of things this guy spoke of. just as the giant monsanto influences agriculture colleges.

i'd be willing to bet chiro. colleges and other fields of natural healing see much in donations or support to keep the lights on. there'd be no benefit "only to individual patients".

nope, it's all about choke down a pill take a shot like it or lump it.

we as patients do have a part in this. myself have been beating my head against the wall for many yrs. it's on vacation for a while.

my last experience with a spinal surgeon who i had been told the ms thing would not be an issue "that was a joke" i could tell -he paid little attention to me or the obvious spine issues i had been told by his office after sending him cd's he could help me with is what i was led to believe since he said come on in...... but he took the time to comment on my med. records that he saw i'd been seeing many dr.'s trying to get this done. i went through the whole thing i'm in this body it tells me that the spurs the difference in strength and the reason i feel so strongly about it and was hoping he would answer my questions "which he could not".

anyhow, had my venting -- yep, the patients need to be a part of it---but, after 20 yrs. beating this drum nothing much has changed yet. the info. is there and it's blinded by the dollar and ignorance. i'd like to read the small comments on dr. to dr. i know one neuro. had me down as non compliant or somethng to that effect. no, the neuro. and neurosurgeons and pretty much all mainstream med. are non compliant.

Blossom,
My experience is the opposite. I walk in the door and the surgeons look at my images and recommend surgery. So far I have been recommended surgery for both shoulders, the cervical spine the L5/S1 disc, right hip replacement and right wrist fracture repair. While I do have many inherited and acquired health and musculoskeletal issues, for my age, I am actually in better shape than most of the doctors I have seen. None were interested or in the least concerned about the extensive red flags in my family and personal history regarding severe autoimmune-inflammatory conditions. Their case history taking was superficial and poor at best. What’s worse is that one of the triggers was an anesthetic. The exams were sloppy and unrelated to the area of complaint and typically done on a table pushed up against a wall. You can’t do a good orthopedic and neurological exam on a table pushed up against a wall that requires a step stool to get on and is covered with slippery, waxy, noisy and annoying paper. What you and Poet got was a surgical evaluation, not a functional orthopedic evaluation, never mind a holistic or "global" assesment.

dr. flanagan, i can't imagine having the knowledge and experience under my belt that you have and being able to keep your cool when dealing with you health issues and the mind set in mainstream. with me, even though i can be visibly looked at they can see what happens when i tilt my head etc. they have no answer but they can still justify it by saying the ms word. this guy did not even give the time i was promised-i could hear him before he got to my door i could tell by the conversation that was the first he even took a look at my case he had a series of x-rays they put me through which he never addressed at all. he said there are many people that have bone spurs and they don't have these issues. i told him i wasn't many people i was "me". he also said going through the front they could hit the esophagus and people die from that. i said i'd chance it.

in your case you'd be like a throphy patient-the surgeon could bragg on how he got a chiro. up and running. i know i'm stretching it a bit "maybe". but, they'd rather not acknowldge your good health other wise or your med. history and that you have kept things in line because of your holistic knowledge.
if this was all humor and not so serious it would be a sick joke they can come off with.

yet, like when i had the appendix-a little tiny hole-they got that bad boy out - it saved my life. it amazes me how far things have come and the knowledge that's there. but, unless they take time with a patient and look at and consider the whole person the history every possibility which would be costly getting out of the gate-but the money saved and the unnecessary suffering in the long run would win the race. i could have cost the ins. a ton had i taken every drug offered through the yrs. yet, what i wanted addressed could find no help. but, even though i can barely move health wise as you i'm in pretty good shape especially considering the age. i don't feel it would be that way had i been big on the med's.

hey, i hear they wanna start putting a med chip in us so "they say" will help if an emergency they can scan your chip and get our med. history. i guess that's when this little red neck dies or whatever excuse they come up with--i'm not getting a chip put in me. can you imagine, it's hard enough to be an individual with them then i'd be say bring patient "et 66" in.

i know it will never happen but i'd love to get especially a neuro. booked solid for 1 mo. with patients "just like" me and be a fly on the wall. better yet, a patient like you, booked solid 1 mo. he would definitly be pulling his hair out.

Some more information has 'appeared' regarding CPn and it's involvement in the degenerative disease processes!

The latest research has proven a link between inflammation and atherosclerosis. In fact, it's now known that inflammation is responsible for the birth and growth of atherosclerosis. Here's how.

Cholesterol plaque begins, not as a disease, but as a normal, healthy response by the body. Cholesterol plaque contains many of the inflammatory elements that are designed to destroy infectious germs such as Chlamydia pneumoniae - the Heart Attack Germ - and repair damaged tissue. These elements are drawn to injured and infected arteries as part of the healing process.

One of the most important inflammatory elements are cells from the immune system called macrophages. As the animation above illustrates, when the wall of an artery is injured, these immune cells travel to the site of the injury and burrow into the artery wall. They produce healing inflammation in the surrounding tissue, which kills germs and repairs cells.

Unfortunately, immune cells can also be infected by germs such as Chlamydia pneumoniae. When immune cells burrow inside the artery, they carry the germ with them, creating more infection in the artery.

Even worse, infected immune cells can suck particles of cholesterol from the blood stream and carry them into the artery wall.

Inflammation is designed to be helpful only in the short-term; long-term episodes of inflammation can do great damage to the body. Since plaque is naturally drawn to the site of inflammation, long-term infection and inflammation continually draws cholesterol plaque to the artery over an extended period of time.

As the years pass by -- and infection and inflammation secretly simmer away inside their unsuspecting victims -- layer after layer of plaque is deposited inside the artery. These layers build into mounds of cholesterol that reduce the flow of blood through the artery, eventually causing many of the symptoms of cardiovascular disease, including strokes and heart attacks.
http://www.theheartattackgerm.com/a%20short2.htm

;)
Nigel

nzer, how are feeling? any better or is the die off still rough? how long since you started treatment? hope you're noticeing some improvement.

Hi Bloss, thanks for checking up on me ;)
I'm 155 days into the Protocol and reality is I won't be expecting much in the positive for some time. I do have changes that I know are improvements, such as I now have feeling in parts of my feet and lower legs that I had lost.
The die off period is over time as the endo-toxin and secondary porphyria/Herxhiemer effect has to be slow, too sudden and it will kill me!
I am very aware that the changes that I am having that are negative are all in regions of my body where injury and trauma has been historically. The question will be once the protocol is ended (18-24 months) what will recover, what may need stem cell or similar treatment to encourage cellular repair.

The most interesting thing I have recently experienced is changes in the noises from my spine. It had been extremely noisy to move/stretch/rotate and I had a week or so of silence just lately. I am in a bit of a flare at the moment, which is natural for the treatment, and the noises are back. So I am of the opinion that the noise has something to do with the inflammation caused where the CPn is present.

I am finding more and more links with Bacteria and viruses with Health problems on the Net and a believe there is going to be a whole new level of Medicine approach to de-generative disease with the awareness that the 'dis-ease' has been building up for years.

Many of the original studies have been reviewed regarding ABx treatments and there are many insights why the early research didn't show positive results. Simple things such as drug types and drug combinations and also time frames have now shown dramatically different outcomes. The concerns that Dr F mentions regarding side effects and symptoms is better understood as the specialists have deciphered the incidences and found answers that show a very different picture in the process of bacterial die off for instance, or involvement of tissues that were previously not known to be infected by bacteria.

;)
Nigel

Blossom,
Your chief complaint Is muscle weakness that is further affected by the position of your cervical spine. The cervical spinal canal is significantly impinged. The fact that your arm strength gets worse when you flex your neck and improves in extension is significant and it is an important clue that needs to be taken into consideration. Cervical flexion further impinges the spinal canal. The surgeons should be testing your muscles in light of your MRI and complaints. In addition to standard muscle tests I tests muscles with the spine in different strain positions. The change in strength can also be checked with EMG.

The only type of surgery I would consider for bone spurs, especially in cases like yours, is endoscopic surgery. Open surgery is too radical surgery and it can lead to joint instability.

http://www.laserspineinstitute.com/back ... r_removal/

The role of inflammation in cardiovascular disease is far from new. Infections are just one possible cause and there are many different pathogens, such as viruses and periodontal bacteria etc. Other suspected causes of inflammation are hypertension, obesity, diabetes, dysfunction of fat metabolism and lipid peroxidation.

Dr F what causes muscle weakness in de-generative diseases?

I have been noticing in the publications that there are assumptions and no definite answers to focus on.

Diseases like MS have so many assumptions about nerve conduction being the cause and when I follow the research it goes only so far and they don't link the theories with tests to support the hypothesis.

I start to think that they 'might' need to review their assumptions because of the intracellular involvement in all of the list you mention "The role of inflammation in cardiovascular disease is far from new. Infections are just one possible cause and there are many different pathogens, such as viruses and periodontal bacteria etc. Other suspected causes of inflammation are hypertension, obesity, diabetes, dysfunction of fat metabolism and lipid peroxidation.". All of this list have definite high infection loads and Science doesn't have the courage to say it is necessary for high bacterial load to occur for these issues to become chronic!

Everything is termed 'one possible cause'!
It's like when Neuro's dx people with 'possible MS' then step that up a notch to a dx of 'probable MS'.
Tell a Lady she is probably pregnant, or tell anyone it is possible you will win Lotto!

;)
Nigel

Not all neurodegenerative diseases of adults are associated with muscle weakness. Some are associated with extrapyramidal signs, such as spasms, or cerebellar signs, such as ataxia seen in Parkinson's and Huntington's disease. MS, ALS and PLS are more typically associated with muscle weakness. Strokes are also associated with muscle weakness. Muscle weakness in strokes is caused by neuronal death, ischemia and edema, as well as shifts and herniation of the brain inside the vault. I suspect the weakness in MS, ALS and PLS is due to ischemia and edema in the brain and cord, as well as compression and shear stresses of the internal capsule and pyramidal tracts. Stenosis of the intervertebral foramen and spinal canal due to spondylosis are also well known causes of muscle weakness. I suspect spinal trauma is a cause of spondylosis, stenosis, MS and ALS.

Some food for thought sent to me by a patient regarding the role of the gut microflora (commensal bacteria) in brain health and behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWT_BLVOASI

Very similar to the talks by Terry Wahls and several others on the Gut involvement in MS disease thanks

dr. flanagan, i agree with everything you said. but, in all these yrs. although no neuro or surgeon could or would give me an answer even when positioning and strength was very very right there for them to observe. just the lame answer it's probably your ms. but, no disease is gonna turn on and turn off like that. other than something say like when your arm goes to sleep because of lack of circulation or pressing on a nerve. i'm not maybe saying that right but i think you know where i'm coming from. just as with some vascular disease the legs get heavy some get so they can't walk. what makes it so difficult for them to even consider that twisted impaired spinal column wouldn't be choking things off and causeing havoc. the surgeon we went to see to my understanding and poets was supposed to do endroscopic surgery but the way he got to talking it did not seem that way.

if i can somehow swing healthwise and otherwise to get to a place as you posted i'm gonna try again. i keep hoping a good one would locate closer here. as you know it was all a go and sandy blew that away. and things just haven't fallen into place again yet.