This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Knowledge & Support Community

In my opinion, adults shouldn't need a prescription for marijuana anymore than they need a prescription for cigarettes or alcohol. Cannibis is much safer than alcohol or prescription drugs. It would be easy to do comparative studies on the impact different drugs have on mental and motor skills in people of differet ages. Alcohol clearly one of the worst when it comes to losing mental and motor skills as well as judgement. Prescription psychotrophic drugs are next and are a major cause of suicides. Many of the patients I consult with are older, seriously ill, and on life threatening drugs. Medicinal cannibis is the least of their concerns. Studies have shown that it can be helpful for many symptoms related to AD, PD and MS. It is also good for strokes, epilepsy. It seems to be effective for children with ADHD, as well, and less harmful than amphetimines.

I dont have a coronal:

Complaints:
- weak legs
- balance
- numbness in hands/arms
- tremors legs/spasm legs

Stupid question: are all discs visible in the images (from head to tail i mean)

Hello Robni,
I can see the discs form C2 through T3 on the sagittal (lateral) cervical view and T9 through L5 on the sagittal lumbar view. The only discs missing are T4-T8. The top and bottom of the square body portion of the vertebral segments are called the end plates. The end plates. The end plates are supported by a meshwork of columns and beams called trabecula. All of your cervical endplates show compression deformation. You have significant disc degeneration (spondylosis) causing stenosis of the spinal canal at C5/6 and C6/7. The spondylosis is close to, but not quite contacting the cord. Technically it is not considered to be stenosis or myelopathy unless it compresses the cord. Nonetheless, the stenosis of the canal caused by the spondylosis is compressing the epidural space. The epidural space contains the vertebral venous plexus (VVP). The VVP is the drainage system of the spinal cord. It also drains the brain during upright posture. Increased pressure in the epidural space on the VVP decrease the pressure gradient for blood flow to the cord. Decreased blood flow to the cord can cause chronic ischemia and degeneration. In my opinion, spondylosis can also affect CSF flow between the cranial vault and spinal canal. The endplates of all your lumbar vertebra show similar signs of compression deformation but there is no stenosis due to spondylosis. Your signs and symptoms are due to the spondylosis causing and stenosis of the spinal canal in the cervical spine and increased pressure on the spinal cord similar to but not quite a myelopathy. I have consulted and treated many cases similar to yours. Blossom is a good example. As I recall, you said you played soccer. Heading the ball and hard falls on the buttocks would explain the deformation of the endplates in the cervical and lumbar vertebra.

Thx so far, doc.....i already forwarded your opinion to my physiotherapist.
It would be great if you could treat me, but due to distance...no option
What would be your advice, a chiropractor here in Holland?

I would treat you according to what I find. I would consider cervical traction in your case with prepatory and follow up physioltherapy. If you do consider cervical traction you need to find a high quality piece of equipment that can control the angle, strength and duration of the pull, as well as length of treatment. Before considering traction, you need to be checked for possible local tethering of the cord such as L'Hermitte's sign as well as upper and lower extremity adverse mechanical tension tests. You should also be checked for upper motor nerve signs. In addition manual and mechanical types of traction, flexion-distraction and craniosacral I would also use different types of electrotherapy on your weak muscles and I would work on your sensory and proprioceptive nerves for balance.

Hi all, Dr F the stenosis that you speak of is that what we are seeing as the dark area that is forward of the cord at C5-6, C6-7?
My past MRI's and many MRI's I have seen of PwMS have the same imagine but possibly looking more like compression or bulge of the disc material.
Am I understanding correctly that many PwMS are having this same finding by MRI and that it is not seen by Radiologists or Neurologists as a factor in MS?
It seems to me from what you have said above that most people with this finding by MRI will have 'MS' like symptoms due to the processes you describe.
This to my thinking is fundamentally why PwMS are not dx-ed or treated appropriately.

To assume that 'MS' is auto-immune or that EAE is related is easily challenged by what you are saying, imo!

It seems to me that a mind shift/paradigm shift would occur if what you are saying can be supported by proof that treatments and measurements of treatment will create improvements for PwMS such as CSF flow changes, CCSVI improvements and symptom improvements.

So I 'assume' the work of Damadian/Rosa/Flanagan etal is providing the details required to confront the false understandings that Neurology have been deluded by for many, many decades!


Nigel
ps. imagine if an infection had occurred at the same sight as the bulges or had intracellularly infected associated muscle, or endothelial cells, and then enabled the infection to modify the immune system response by exchanging the DNA of the T and B cells plus other cells that generate cytokine responses. Stealth Bacteria do that all the time.
What a terrible cascade of health issues that would cause! There could be many disease options occurring from RA through to Heart Disease and also other de-generatives such as Alzhiemers and so on!

Maybe, just maybe this is what is described by Dr Klinghardt and other Functional Medicine doctors as the way that fibro, Lyme, MS, Parkinson's etc are stages in progressive illness and slight changes in incidental or co-factors are why these diseases differentiate?

Food for thought!

Hello Nigel,
Yes it is and it is with his head in the neutral position. Imagine what it is like when his head is flexed forward. Blossom has a huge bone spur that is very close to the cord. She gets weaker when she flexes her neck forward which brings the cord closer to the spur if not touching it. She also gets a L'Hermitte's sign. Do you see the connection. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it probably is a duck. The duck in this case is myelopathy type signs and symptoms due to suspicious looking spondylosis causing stenosis that almost, but doesn't quite touch the cord. I suspect that spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis in the lower spine play a role in neurodegenerative conditions similar to malformations and misalignments in the upper cervical spine. Upright and Cine MRI are validating my theory.

Obstruction of blood and CSF flow leads to chronic stasis. TCM calls is stagnation which is a phleghm (edema and lymphatic) condition. Stagnation can lead to external invasions and internal "evils" (maladies and pathogens) such as fire (inflammation) and infections.

Thanks Dr. F
My MRI reports in 2008-13 all say I have a disc bulge and osteophytes which mildly indent the cord at C5-6 and at L5-S1 osteophytes and a disc bulge that indents the thecal sac.

That would be a possible/probable cause of the range of symptoms and also the doppler findings that I have a right sided vertibral/azygos obstruction/compression when erect.
Top this off with a persistent CPn infection noted by multiple blood tests.

So there may be many (PwMS) in the same situation as I am, all hoping for researchers to become interested?

;)
Nigel

Hi doc,

I want to add 2 things:
- when the legs 'shake' (tremors) and i bend forward...it stops
- being able to walk little, lift legs, move toes differs during the day. I also have to keep active, when i do nothing for 3 or 4 days i have to 'recover'; mobility is worse than when i move around during the days

Nigel,
The C5/6 disc buldge may explain some of your signs and symptoms. The osteophytes at L5/S1 probably has little effect. The empty collapsed azygous and vertebral veins when you are upright is an interesting finding. Blood from the vertebral veins drains into the azygous vein. I have seen cases of spondylosis and scoliosis of the thoracic spine associated with decreased flow through the VVP and azygous veins, which makes sense. The spondylosis at C5/6, however, would have little if any effect on the azygous.

Hello Robni,
What do you do when you bend forward to relieve the tremors in your legs? Do you bend you head forward or do you bend forward from the waist to stretch your legs. It is much better to stay active to pump blood and lymph through the body and prevent stagnation (stasis). Stasis leads to the accumulation of anerobic metabolites that can cause cramps and spasms. Getting heart pumping will help move blood and CSF past the obstruction in your neck. It will also help maintain the health of the muscles and prevent disuse atrophy and contractures caused by weakness and imbalances in muscles. You can't get rid of certain types of permanent damage but you can do a great deal to make things better with a sound diet, a tailored exercise program that suits you particular condition and a good health care professional that throughly understands addresses the physical components of your condition to effectively treat and rehabilitate the weaknesses and imbalances.

What do you do when you bend forward to relieve the tremors in your legs? Do you bend you head forward or do you bend forward from the waist to stretch your legs

Just sitting in a chair, feet on the ground, tremor and than bend forward....about 30-45 degrees and then it stops. I read that this is a sign of damage in the spine, with bending over the cord gets some more space...

I am discussing you treatment options with my physiotherapist, i am curious if he is willing to participate in this.

I also am trying to contact a chiropractor who is specialized in atlas correction etc.

Btw, what is the duration of the treatment (excluding physio); a day, a week, a month...??

Oh, reading about the Azygos....mine is partially hypoplastic...

Regards,

Robert

Robert,
Flexing the head or spine forward increases tension on the cord. Flexing the thigh toward the chest also increases tension on the cauda equina and spinal cord. It is a good sign that it doesn't cause a L'Hermitte's sign or increased weakness. Bendng foward in your case is most likely stretching your leg muscles and relieving the spasms caused by overexitation of the nervous system.

The treatment schedule and duration should be based on objective findings. In your case I would monitor many factors such as the tremors, spasms, range of motion, tender points, muscle weaknesses etc.

The spondylosis may be decreasing blood flow in the vertebral and azygous veins.

uprightdoc wrote:Nigel,
The C5/6 disc buldge may explain some of your signs and symptoms. The osteophytes at L5/S1 probably has little effect. The empty collapsed azygous and vertebral veins when you are upright is an interesting finding. Blood from the vertebral veins drains into the azygous vein. I have seen cases of spondylosis and scoliosis of the thoracic spine associated with decreased flow through the VVP and azygous veins, which makes sense. The spondylosis at C5/6, however, would have little if any effect on the azygous.

Thanks, as always, Dr F,
I have made the 'assumption' that if the cord is tight at the two disc bulges and tethered as it should at each end the the bending of the spine will create flow issues such as CSF and bloods because of the restricted areas at the bulges.
The bulges would I assume limit transmission of the fluids etc and if there was inflammation at the sites then that would compound all sorts of things.
The bulges 'could' also effect nerves and nerve signals.

My L'Hermites at present is non existent, and with stress and over working physically it will return till things settle in Life.
Also at present the trigeminal neuralgia has ended and I am off the Gabapentin, this happened about 6 months ago.
Naturally I 'assume' that this may be inflammation related and that the CPn protocol has influenced these symptoms, no proof of course.
The interesting thing is that my lower body has progressively become weaker and the signals are delayed to motor nerves. The overall fatigue is higher and there is increased temperature problems with regulation and vision issues have increased plus cognitive/concentration issues have increased.

So the picture is clouded because the side effects of endo-toxins and secondary porphyria and detox of die off is confusing the overall assessment of the protocol changes at present at 12 months.

;)
Nigel